Colt .38 Army Special (1923)

[Monac]

Charly2020!,
That is a nice old Colt. I have no experience with them but your post caused me do a little research regarding the various chamberings of these guns.
Here is one that I found of interest:
https://www.oldcolt.com/collections/colt-army-special

Personally, I wouldn’t refinish that gun, but I would put other grips on it for shooting it. I would also have it looked at by a competent gunsmith just to make sure everything operates and lines up the way it should.

Thanks, Pat Riot! The page you link to confuses me a bit, because it says the Colt Army Special was available in ".38/200". What do you think that means? Was it for 38 S&W in general, the 38 S&W 200 grain Super Police load in particular, or maybe had sights adjusted for the 38 Special 200 grain load? As for the British .38/200 or .380 Enfield, I have not been able to turn up an exact date at the moment, but I do not think they adopted it until after 1927, so it would not have been around when the Army Special was in production. Anyway, thanks again!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have no idea where that web page got its information .

This is a reprint from a Colt catalog sometime early in the 20th Century. Sorry, I do not have an exact date. I scanned it from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Double Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Vol. 1. (Part of the reason I keep pushing Kunhhausen's books, they are so thorough.)

So there is a list of the cartridges the revolver was chambered for. If you look at the information in the parentheses by .38 Colt, there are a whole lot of cartridges listed. They all had the same basic diameters, some were longer and some were shorter. Notice it lists both 38 Colt Special and 38 S&W Special. They are the same cartridge with different names. No mention at all of 38 Smith and Wesson.




However another book of mine lists 32-20, 38 Colt, 38 Smith and Wesson, and 41 Colt as the cartridges the Army Special was chambered for.




38/200 is the name of the 38 S&W cartridge that the Victory Models S&W sent to England that I mentioned yesterday, were chambered for.

The standard bullet for the 38 S&W cartridge weighed 145 - 146 grains. If you look at the boxes I posted yesterday, you will see that. Those are modern 38 S&W loads.

Here are some old boxes of 38 S&W. The style of the box on the left dates from anywhere from 1946 to 1960. The box of Winchester ammo on the right has a small notation of 5-14, which I take to mean it was made in May of 1914. That would fit with the style of the box and the revolver pictured on the box. Notice the Remington box calls out 146 grain bullets. A bit tough to read the grain weight on the old Winchester box, but it looks like it could be 146 to me.






Anyway, the 38/200 ammunition the British Victory Models were chambered for had a bit more punch than a load with a 145 grain bullet.

According to Barnes, in Cartridges of the World, 38 Super Police or 380/200 (they are the same) was found to have about the same knockdown power as the old .455 Military cartridge, but it could be fired in a lighter gun, such as a S&W Victory Model. Barnes does not state specifically when the 38/200 cartridge was first used, he only states it was prior to World War II.

I found this website, which states that Britain began using the 38/200 round in 1922, which overlaps the period when the Colt Army Special was produced.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.38-200



This is the caliber marking on my Colt Army Special. It simply says 38.






Here it is with some 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, and 38 Special cartridges. It chambers them all, just like the old catalog says. It does not chamber any 38 S&W rounds, not the old ones nor the new ones. If the Army Special truly was chambered for any form of 38 S&W, the chambering had to be different than on mine.

 

[Monac]

I would suggest that the Military Wiki website is in error. First the British did not adopt the 380 Enfield revolver until 1932 according to the Imperial War Museum:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30034679

And the British were producing Webley Mark VI pattern .455 revolvers at the Enfield arsenal until 1926, apparently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_revolver

1922 was just too early for the British Army to have been developing new pistol cartridges, IMO. Demobilizing from the war, and dealing with things like the Troubles in Ireland, the Northwest Frontier of India, potential involvement in the Greco-Turkish War and so on gave them too much else to do, and to spend their very limited budget on. The process of replacing the .455 Webley may have started with a request in 1922, but I would bet it did not result in the selection of the .38/200 cartridge until after the Army Special was out of production.

In the US, it does not appear that people wanted 38 S&W in a large pistol, except perhaps as target guns. S&W never made a K-frame for it until the British asked for them in 1940, and I would bet the same was true of Colt. Here it was a pocket pistol caliber, for guns like the Colt 38 Police Positive at most.

Having differed with Driftwood Johnson, I now stand ready to be proven wrong.

PS - Barnes may say the British found the 38/200 had about the same knock-down power as the .455 Webley, but I think that is just something they very much hoped would turn out to be true. Certainly the track record of 38/200 in this country, and of .380 Enfield during WWII does not support that hope, as far as I know, whereas no one seems to have complained about .455, or at least no more than, say, about 45 ACP,

 

[entropy]

How did you get the year 1923?

That is a Colt New Army. They were produced until 1908. The correct cartridge for it is the .38 Long Colt. Yes, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, and .38 Spl. all chamber, as does the .357 Magnum. The chambers on these revolvers were not stepped to prevent the .357 being fired in it, as the .357 was developed until well after they were discontinued. NEVER fire .357 Mag. in one of these guns. I don't recommend .38 Spl.either, unless light (wadcutter-strength) handloads. .38 Spl. can 'de-tune' one of these quickly, which is how I became familiar with them. I repaired and re-timed one for a friend, and while I had it apart, I tried to chamber .357 Mags in the cylinder, and all six took them, because of the lack of the chamber step.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I would posit that they are probably lumping the Army Special, Official Police, and Commando models together when they say that .38/200 was an available chambering.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

How did you get the year 1923?

That is a Colt New Army. They were produced until 1908. The correct cartridge for it is the .38 Long Colt. Yes, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, and .38 Spl. all chamber, as does the .357 Magnum. The chambers on these revolvers were not stepped to prevent the .357 being fired in it, as the .357 was developed until well after they were discontinued. NEVER fire .357 Mag. in one of these guns. I don't recommend .38 Spl.either, unless light (wadcutter-strength) handloads. .38 Spl. can 'de-tune' one of these quickly, which is how I became familiar with them. I repaired and re-timed one for a friend, and while I had it apart, I tried to chamber .357 Mags in the cylinder, and all six took them, because of the lack of the chamber step.

As it clearly states on the barrel, the OPs gun is an Army Special. The New Army was a totally different frame, though it bears a passing resemblance. You might want to look again.
This is a New Army-

Notice the different latch design and seperate bolt and cylinder stop notches in the cylinder.

 

[entropy]

<Ed McMahon voice>You are correct, Sir! </Ed McMahon voice> I didn't see the latch in his pics. I believe my advice about not loading .357's is still valid.

 

[Charly2020!]

I am not sure I understand, Charly2020!. Hard rubber grips are a bit fragile, especially when it comes to the shock of firing the gun, but normal handling, such as removing them for cleaning or to put on other grips for shooting, is not a problem unless they are deeply cracked already.

@Monac what I meant is in regards to their fragility due to their age and not so much to the material.

If someone can confirm that nothing will happen when removing the original grips, I may feel inclined to do so.

 

[Charly2020!]

How did you get the year 1923?

That is a Colt New Army. They were produced until 1908. The correct cartridge for it is the .38 Long Colt. Yes, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, and .38 Spl. all chamber, as does the .357 Magnum. The chambers on these revolvers were not stepped to prevent the .357 being fired in it, as the .357 was developed until well after they were discontinued. NEVER fire .357 Mag. in one of these guns. I don't recommend .38 Spl.either, unless light (wadcutter-strength) handloads. .38 Spl. can 'de-tune' one of these quickly, which is how I became familiar with them. I repaired and re-timed one for a friend, and while I had it apart, I tried to chamber .357 Mags in the cylinder, and all six took them, because of the lack of the chamber step.

Hello @entropy.

I was able to find the year it was manufactured by using the serial number on Colt’s website.

As for the Model, 1) it clearly states so on the barrel, and 2) when searching on Colt’s website, the output states it is an Army Special.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

@Monac what I meant is in regards to their fragility due to their age and not so much to the material.

If someone can confirm that nothing will happen when removing the original grips, I may feel inclined to do so.

Well....to be honest, they are already shot, so it doesnt really matter. There are many high quality reproduction grips out there for those, both hard rubber and wood, as well as clean originals if youre willing to pay a premium.

The odds are just as good that they will continue to fall apart during firing as removal. I say chuck 'em, but your call.

I put these inexpensive ($25 I think) repros on my Police Positive, and they looked great-

 

[Charly2020!]

Howdy

I have no idea where that web page got its information .

This is a reprint from a Colt catalog sometime early in the 20th Century. Sorry, I do not have an exact date. I scanned it from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Double Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Vol. 1. (Part of the reason I keep pushing Kunhhausen's books, they are so thorough.)

So there is a list of the cartridges the revolver was chambered for. If you look at the information in the parentheses by .38 Colt, there are a whole lot of cartridges listed. They all had the same basic diameters, some were longer and some were shorter. Notice it lists both 38 Colt Special and 38 S&W Special. They are the same cartridge with different names. No mention at all of 38 Smith and Wesson.

View attachment 945317


However another book of mine lists 32-20, 38 Colt, 38 Smith and Wesson, and 41 Colt as the cartridges the Army Special was chambered for.





38/200 is the name of the 38 S&W cartridge that the Victory Models S&W sent to England that I mentioned yesterday, were chambered for.

The standard bullet for the 38 S&W cartridge weighed 145 - 146 grains. If you look at the boxes I posted yesterday, you will see that. Those are modern 38 S&W loads.

Here are some old boxes of 38 S&W. The style of the box on the left dates from anywhere from 1946 to 1960. The box of Winchester ammo on the right has a small notation of 5-14, which I take to mean it was made in May of 1914. That would fit with the style of the box and the revolver pictured on the box. Notice the Remington box calls out 146 grain bullets. A bit tough to read the grain weight on the old Winchester box, but it looks like it could be 146 to me.

View attachment 945318




Anyway, the 38/200 ammunition the British Victory Models were chambered for had a bit more punch than a load with a 145 grain bullet.

According to Barnes, in Cartridges of the World, 38 Super Police or 380/200 (they are the same) was found to have about the same knockdown power as the old .455 Military cartridge, but it could be fired in a lighter gun, such as a S&W Victory Model. Barnes does not state specifically when the 38/200 cartridge was first used, he only states it was prior to World War II.

I found this website, which states that Britain began using the 38/200 round in 1922, which overlaps the period when the Colt Army Special was produced.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.38-200



This is the caliber marking on my Colt Army Special. It simply says 38.

View attachment 945319




Here it is with some 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, and 38 Special cartridges. It chambers them all, just like the old catalog says. It does not chamber any 38 S&W rounds, not the old ones nor the new ones. If the Army Special truly was chambered for any form of 38 S&W, the chambering had to be different than on mine.

View attachment 945320

Howdy

I have no idea where that web page got its information .

This is a reprint from a Colt catalog sometime early in the 20th Century. Sorry, I do not have an exact date. I scanned it from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Double Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Vol. 1. (Part of the reason I keep pushing Kunhhausen's books, they are so thorough.)

So there is a list of the cartridges the revolver was chambered for. If you look at the information in the parentheses by .38 Colt, there are a whole lot of cartridges listed. They all had the same basic diameters, some were longer and some were shorter. Notice it lists both 38 Colt Special and 38 S&W Special. They are the same cartridge with different names. No mention at all of 38 Smith and Wesson.

View attachment 945317


However another book of mine lists 32-20, 38 Colt, 38 Smith and Wesson, and 41 Colt as the cartridges the Army Special was chambered for.




38/200 is the name of the 38 S&W cartridge that the Victory Models S&W sent to England that I mentioned yesterday, were chambered for.

The standard bullet for the 38 S&W cartridge weighed 145 - 146 grains. If you look at the boxes I posted yesterday, you will see that. Those are modern 38 S&W loads.

Here are some old boxes of 38 S&W. The style of the box on the left dates from anywhere from 1946 to 1960. The box of Winchester ammo on the right has a small notation of 5-14, which I take to mean it was made in May of 1914. That would fit with the style of the box and the revolver pictured on the box. Notice the Remington box calls out 146 grain bullets. A bit tough to read the grain weight on the old Winchester box, but it looks like it could be 146 to me.

View attachment 945318




Anyway, the 38/200 ammunition the British Victory Models were chambered for had a bit more punch than a load with a 145 grain bullet.

According to Barnes, in Cartridges of the World, 38 Super Police or 380/200 (they are the same) was found to have about the same knockdown power as the old .455 Military cartridge, but it could be fired in a lighter gun, such as a S&W Victory Model. Barnes does not state specifically when the 38/200 cartridge was first used, he only states it was prior to World War II.

I found this website, which states that Britain began using the 38/200 round in 1922, which overlaps the period when the Colt Army Special was produced.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.38-200



This is the caliber marking on my Colt Army Special. It simply says 38.

View attachment 945319




Here it is with some 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, and 38 Special cartridges. It chambers them all, just like the old catalog says. It does not chamber any 38 S&W rounds, not the old ones nor the new ones. If the Army Special truly was chambered for any form of 38 S&W, the chambering had to be different than on mine.

View attachment 945320

@Driftwood Johnson thank you for the detailed explanation as well as for the URLs.

Have you fired any of the .38 rounds you have mentioned with your Colt Army Special?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Having differed with Driftwood Johnson, I now stand ready to be proven wrong.

Nope.

I don't know much about British revolvers or British service cartridges. That is just a website I found with some googling.

I should have known better.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Have you fired any of the .38 rounds you have mentioned with your Colt Army Special?

No. I only have three 38 Colt Short rounds, and only one box of antique 38 Colt Long rounds. Not going to shoot them. But they clearly fit in the chambers.

 

[WestKentucky]

Even then, a serious collector will sometimes buy a lower-grade specimin as a placeholder in the collection until a nicer one can be found.

There are other guys who are collectors but also shooters. They buy 2 of everything, one really nice one to show off, and a beater to shoot and enjoy without degrading the value of the “nice” one.

 

[entropy]

Hello @entropy.

I was able to find the year it was manufactured by using the serial number on Colt’s website.

As for the Model, 1) it clearly states so on the barrel, and 2) when searching on Colt’s website, the output states it is an Army Special.

Yup, I didn't see the latch the first time, and it's been 30 years since I worked on one.

 

[BigBlue 94]

As it clearly states on the barrel, the OPs gun is an Army Special. The New Army was a totally different frame, though it bears a passing resemblance. You might want to look again.
This is a New Army-
View attachment 945338
Notice the different latch design and seperate bolt and cylinder stop notches in the cylinder.

And is an improvement of the New Navy. The new navy had no stops on the outside of the cylinder. Both New Navy and New Army cylinders rotate CCW, which led to timing problems over the years. They were the first swing out cylinder DA revolver. The New Navy/Army has a longer length and shorter heightwise frame than the newer guns.

I posted a new navy earlier in this thread i think.