rWt
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Did Colt make any double action revolvers in 45 Colt caliber that are worth owning and shooting today?
Colt DA Revolvers in 45 Colt?
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Billy Shears
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The same gun -- the New Service model -- was made available in .45 Colt.
Chuck Perry
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The Colt Anaconda was available in 45 Colt.
Actually the Colt Model 1917 was in .45 ACP (or .45 AutoRim) only, not .45 Colt. However the preceeding Model 1909 was a .45 Colt.
From 1898 to 1944, Colt's large frame/double action revolver was the New Service model, which included such variants as the military Model 1909 and 1917, and a target version called the Shooting Master. In commercial models the favorite chambering was in .45 Colt. After the New Service/Shooting Master were discontinued Colt didn't return to the market until the Anaconda was introduced in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt around 1990 and discontinued in 2003.
All of these were fine guns, and while they can still be found those in exceptional condition command high prices.
From 1898 to 1944, Colt's large frame/double action revolver was the New Service model, which included such variants as the military Model 1909 and 1917, and a target version called the Shooting Master. In commercial models the favorite chambering was in .45 Colt. After the New Service/Shooting Master were discontinued Colt didn't return to the market until the Anaconda was introduced in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt around 1990 and discontinued in 2003.
All of these were fine guns, and while they can still be found those in exceptional condition command high prices.
Model 1878...Model 1902...'New Service' in it's various phases/models... were all Double-Action. All really sweet Guns...
I think the New Service 'Shooting Master' Model was .38 Special only...not totally sure, but, pretty sure.
New Service Flat-Top 'Target' Models were available in various Calibers, including .45 LC.
I think the New Service 'Shooting Master' Model was .38 Special only...not totally sure, but, pretty sure.
New Service Flat-Top 'Target' Models were available in various Calibers, including .45 LC.
dfariswheel
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The Shooting Master was available in .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP.
Sport45
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Old Fuff said:
It's picking nits, but is the Colt 1909 chambered in .45 Colt or do those cartridges just fit in the chambers and work? I thought the M1909 was chambered for it's own cartridge that was essentially a .45 Colt with a larger diameter rim. I don't know if the 1909 ammo had a different operating pressure than the .45 Colt.
The 1909 model was a commercial Colt product, chambered in .45 Colt. The "special ammunition" was dimensionally identical to the .45 Colt (I know because I have some of the original cartridges) and while some may have had a larger rim, this didn't affect the chambers because the rims were not enclosed. The bullet weight and velocity was about the same as smokeless powder .45 Colt loads of that day.
The reason there is confusion is because the Army didn't use .45 Colt ammunition in their Colt model 1873 Single Action revolvers.
Instead they used a Frankfort Armory manufactured round that was a compromise designed to fit both the Colt and S&W Schofield. It was loaded with a 230-grain bullet and reduced black powder charge. The 1909 round brought them most of the way back to what they had in 1873 with a possibly larger rim.
The reason there is confusion is because the Army didn't use .45 Colt ammunition in their Colt model 1873 Single Action revolvers.
Instead they used a Frankfort Armory manufactured round that was a compromise designed to fit both the Colt and S&W Schofield. It was loaded with a 230-grain bullet and reduced black powder charge. The 1909 round brought them most of the way back to what they had in 1873 with a possibly larger rim.
rWt
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Thanks all!
Great history!
Would they really make good (accurate) shooters today or were the dimensions sloppy then?
Great history!
Would they really make good (accurate) shooters today or were the dimensions sloppy then?
dfariswheel
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No, the .45 Auto Rim was for use in the 1917 revolvers so you could use it without the half moon clips.
The 1909 was a .45 Colt that used the special Frankford Arsenal .45 ammo that was basically a slightly shorter .45 Colt cartridge.
So, we have the .45 Colt also known as the .45 Long Colt to some people, the US military issue .45 Frankford Arsenal round, the .45 Auto Rim, and the .45 ACP.
The 1909 was a .45 Colt that used the special Frankford Arsenal .45 ammo that was basically a slightly shorter .45 Colt cartridge.
So, we have the .45 Colt also known as the .45 Long Colt to some people, the US military issue .45 Frankford Arsenal round, the .45 Auto Rim, and the .45 ACP.
No. The .45 AutoRim was introduced in 1920, and allowed owners of Colt or S&W model 1917 revolvers to load and shoot without having to use 1/2 moon clips. Think of a .45 ACP with a thick rim.
The model 1909 cartridge was based on the .45 Colt (sometimes called ".45 Long Colt") that supposedly had a larger rim so that the star-shaped extractor in the New Service/Model 1909 wouldn't let fired brass drop back into the chambers. At this point the Old Fuff has a problem with what's written in the reference books.
First of all, Colt had been making New Service revolvers chambered in .45 Colt since 1896, and apparently hadn't had a problem with commercial ammunition.
But the Army didn't use ammunition made by the civilian companies - they got ammunition manufactured at Frankfort Armory - and there may have been some differences between the two relative to rim thickness and diameter. That's something I'm trying to look into. However I hesitate to say that ALL 1909 .45 ammunition was identical to my sample.
Nope - the 1909 cartridge is the same length as the .45 Colt, but longer then the .45 "compromise cartridge" they made to fit both the Colt Single Action Army and S&W Schofield that was intoduced in 1875 and used as long as the Single Action Army remained in service - which could have been as late as 1918. As far as I can tell, the 1909 cartridge was issued exclusively to be used in the Model 1909 revolver.
rWt
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So, if I have this right, the 45 Colt that helped win the West, didn't because it didn't exist until 1909? Or, it did exist in the civilian market, just not the Army?
Is it correct to infer then that since the Frankfort round was shorter, that it was somewhat inferior ballistically to the Long Colt.
Were/are the New Service revolvers accurate? I would presume that they can only safely fire the low pressure rounds made for use in older saa/s?
Old Fuff-you should consider assembling and publishing many of your posts. I thoroughly enjoy reading them!
Is it correct to infer then that since the Frankfort round was shorter, that it was somewhat inferior ballistically to the Long Colt.
Were/are the New Service revolvers accurate? I would presume that they can only safely fire the low pressure rounds made for use in older saa/s?
Old Fuff-you should consider assembling and publishing many of your posts. I thoroughly enjoy reading them!
Jim Watson
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From what I have read, the .45 1909 rim is so large that you could only load every other chamber in a SAA .45 Colt.
I had read that, besides helping simultaneous extraction, the big rim discouraged you from shooting the smokeless 1909 ammo in leftover black powder 1873s. But the load was relatively light, more like the Schofield based Government round than full power BP .45 Colt.
Interesting story about the RSQ powder it was loaded with. Just enough slower than Bullseye that a double charge would not demolish the gun. Apparently they had been having some trouble with double drops in the new smokeless powder ammo production line; according to Phil Sharpe.
Edit to add:
Not exactly.
The .45 Colt came out in 1873 for the SAA and was carried on for the 1878 Double Action Frontier and the 1898 New Service. The Army used the round for at least two years, but went to the .45 Government (version of .45 S&W) for use in both SAA and S&W No 3 Schofield sometime after 1875.
The 1875 Government round was less powerful than the .45 Colt but not a whole lot less than what was in use at the time of transition because they had backed off on the powder charge after some guns failed proof testing.
The 1909 smokeless service load was in the full length Colt case (with larger rim) but was little if any more powerful than the short Government round.
The New Service is a big stout gun safe for any standard .45 Colt load, although it would be dumb to try to Rugerize it. The commercial models were extremely accurate, the New Service Target and Shooting Master were the pinnacle of bigbore target revolvers. Colt led the market for many years before they got slack and Smith & Wesson took over the lead.
I had read that, besides helping simultaneous extraction, the big rim discouraged you from shooting the smokeless 1909 ammo in leftover black powder 1873s. But the load was relatively light, more like the Schofield based Government round than full power BP .45 Colt.
Interesting story about the RSQ powder it was loaded with. Just enough slower than Bullseye that a double charge would not demolish the gun. Apparently they had been having some trouble with double drops in the new smokeless powder ammo production line; according to Phil Sharpe.
Edit to add:
Not exactly.
The .45 Colt came out in 1873 for the SAA and was carried on for the 1878 Double Action Frontier and the 1898 New Service. The Army used the round for at least two years, but went to the .45 Government (version of .45 S&W) for use in both SAA and S&W No 3 Schofield sometime after 1875.
The 1875 Government round was less powerful than the .45 Colt but not a whole lot less than what was in use at the time of transition because they had backed off on the powder charge after some guns failed proof testing.
The 1909 smokeless service load was in the full length Colt case (with larger rim) but was little if any more powerful than the short Government round.
The New Service is a big stout gun safe for any standard .45 Colt load, although it would be dumb to try to Rugerize it. The commercial models were extremely accurate, the New Service Target and Shooting Master were the pinnacle of bigbore target revolvers. Colt led the market for many years before they got slack and Smith & Wesson took over the lead.
Last edited:
351 WINCHESTER
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I used to own a 1909 Army. It would not extract commercial rounds. This was many years ago and at the time I thought something was wrong with the gun or someone had modified the extractor. Foolishly I sold it for a tidy profit. That was the only colt revolver I've ever owned.
The 1909 cartridge had a 255-grain bullet where the earlier "compromise .45" made at Frankfort Armory, bullet weight was 230-grains. It was loaded with 28 grains of FFFg black powder, which produced a muzzle velocity of 730 FPS (I presume out of a 7 1/2 to 8 inch barrel).
The first 1909 rounds were loaded with 5 1/2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder - which wasn't identical to Bullseye powder today, so don't take this to be loading data. Muzzle velocity out of the 1909's 5 1/2 inch barrel was around 800 FPS.
The first 1909 rounds were loaded with 5 1/2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder - which wasn't identical to Bullseye powder today, so don't take this to be loading data. Muzzle velocity out of the 1909's 5 1/2 inch barrel was around 800 FPS.
Jim Watson
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Phil Sharpe gives the US Gov't load as a 255 gr bullet with 8.4 gr of RSQ powder for 738 fps. That after they blew up some guns with 11 gr of Bull, apparently.
Billy Shears
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I have read that one reason for this is that in the early 20th century, law enforcement agencies had their officers qualify on a fairly static target range, where the officers often shot single action. The Colt excelled here because it had the best single action trigger pull. After the '30s, partly under the influence of the FBI, more dynamic training became commonplace, and double action shooting, being more advantageous for this, took over. Since Colt revolvers, owing to their trigger geometry, have always had more of a tendency to stack in DA, the S&W became more popular.
In other words, Colts have better single action pulls, and when conditions favored that, Colts predominated. S&Ws have better double action pulls, and when conditions began to favor that, S&Ws took over.
Billy Shears:
Your observations in post #22 are generally true, but serious double-action training didn't come about until after World War Two.
A bigger factor in Colt's decline was that S&W usually beat them out in competitive bidding. Because of substantial hand-fitting Colt's cost more. Colt also delayed getting back into production after the war, while S&W was making badly needed deliveries to law enforcement agencies and departments before the end of 1945.
Your observations in post #22 are generally true, but serious double-action training didn't come about until after World War Two.
A bigger factor in Colt's decline was that S&W usually beat them out in competitive bidding. Because of substantial hand-fitting Colt's cost more. Colt also delayed getting back into production after the war, while S&W was making badly needed deliveries to law enforcement agencies and departments before the end of 1945.
Some folks confuse the "compromise" cartridge brought out in 1874-75 for use in both the Model 1873 (Colt SAA) and the S&W Schofield, with the Model 1909 cartridge. They are two different cartridges. The first, sometimes called the .45 Army, was a short case, loaded with 28 grains of black powder and a 230 grain bullet, vs the .45 Colt 255 grain bullet with 40 grains of powder. Since the cartridge had to work in the Model 1873, it has the same small rim (some are a tad larger) as the .45 Colt. It was made at Frankford for the Army and there were no commercial contracts. But it was made by several companies for civilian sale after the Schofields were sold off by the Army. The Army, however, kept the compromise round in service until the end of the single action days.
The Model 1909 revolver was a Colt New Service, made for the .45 Colt cartridge. It is a swingout cylinder with conventional simultaneous extraction. But the Army found out that the .45 Colt rim was so small, the cases sometimes jumped the extractor. That was when the Army decided to produce its own cartridge with a larger rim. It is that cartridge, the Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1909, that can be loaded into the Model 1873 only in every other chamber. (That is not something I read, it is something I tried.) That did not concern the Army, since by 1909 the old 1873 was obsolete. The Model 1909 cartridge was made only by Frankford Arsenal; it was never made on contract, and was never made by any commercial company.
The Model 1909 revolver was adopted because the Army wanted desperately to replace the .38 caliber revolvers and progress in adopting an auto pistol had been agonizingly slow. Some call it an emergency purchase, and claim it was never adopted, but it got a model date, special contract production, special markings, and its own cartridge, as well as holsters, manuals, etc. I call that adopted.
FWIW, in the 1910 and 1911 auto pistol tests, two Model 1909 revolvers were used as control, firing round for round with the pistols. The revolvers had two failures, both due to defective cartridges.
Here is a picture showing (top) the .45 Colt and the .45 Model 1909. Observe the larger rim on the Model 1909. The bottom picture shows the .45 Army (Colt-Schofield) beside a .45 Colt. The .45 Army is Benet primed.
Jim
The Model 1909 revolver was a Colt New Service, made for the .45 Colt cartridge. It is a swingout cylinder with conventional simultaneous extraction. But the Army found out that the .45 Colt rim was so small, the cases sometimes jumped the extractor. That was when the Army decided to produce its own cartridge with a larger rim. It is that cartridge, the Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1909, that can be loaded into the Model 1873 only in every other chamber. (That is not something I read, it is something I tried.) That did not concern the Army, since by 1909 the old 1873 was obsolete. The Model 1909 cartridge was made only by Frankford Arsenal; it was never made on contract, and was never made by any commercial company.
The Model 1909 revolver was adopted because the Army wanted desperately to replace the .38 caliber revolvers and progress in adopting an auto pistol had been agonizingly slow. Some call it an emergency purchase, and claim it was never adopted, but it got a model date, special contract production, special markings, and its own cartridge, as well as holsters, manuals, etc. I call that adopted.
FWIW, in the 1910 and 1911 auto pistol tests, two Model 1909 revolvers were used as control, firing round for round with the pistols. The revolvers had two failures, both due to defective cartridges.
Here is a picture showing (top) the .45 Colt and the .45 Model 1909. Observe the larger rim on the Model 1909. The bottom picture shows the .45 Army (Colt-Schofield) beside a .45 Colt. The .45 Army is Benet primed.
Jim
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