Colt New Army 1909

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Zsnark

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:fire:Hi Gunners,

Noticed that the Italians (among others) are replicating historically accurate firearms. There are S&W Schofields, Bisley 1873s, etc. I would really like someone to bring out a replica of the big Colt double actions. The one I would like to acquire is the 1909 model. Chambered for 45lc, 44spl, and maybe 357. Anybody out there have an affinity for big old swingout cylinder Colts. Got a 4" Python which is a sweetheart but nostalgia prods me toward the Colt New Service which briefly preceded the 1911. Maybe, we could get Pietta or Uberti to bring one out.

Feedback is welcome. Be well and don't forget to "Check your Six".

AAW
 
I would love a New Service in .45 Colt. Stupidly, I sold my Colt 1917 in .45 acp many years ago and have regretted it ever since! :banghead:
 
I've found that original turn of the century Colt DA's often cost less than a new in box Bisley or Schofield, although the originals aren't in "New" condition of course. Watch your pawn shops and the used gun cases of the local gun shops. I found an "Officers Model" a couple of months ago for $250 but unfortunately the state I was in didn't like my Wyoming drivers license so I had to pass.
 
The Army's Model 1909 was actually Colt's New Service with plain walnut stocks in place of checkered black hard rubber. The commercial version was offered in all of the popular cartridges of the day, ranging from .38 Special through .45 Colt and .455 Eley.

Basically it was a Python-style gun with (usually) fixed sights. So far as internal lockwork was concerned the two platforms are identical with the parts being larger in the New Service. Assembly required a lot of skilled hand fitting, which was available at the time for low cost. Today the situation is entirely different.

The Italians and others could of course dublicate it, but in today's world it would have to sell in the United States for Python prices (meaning over $1,000) and at that level there wouldn't be much of a market. For that matter there isn't a big market left for S&W, Ruger and Taurus large-frame/big-bore revolvers anymore.

If someone want's a Colt New Service - especially in mint condition - watch the better collector auctions, but be prepared to pay. The sad truth is that a foreign made clone would cost about the same.
 
Glad for Big Colt replies but wonder about cost

:confused:Hi again Gunners,

Thanks for all the great quick responses. Got a question re. cost of repros. There is/are a plethora of historical firearms like clones of SSAs, Schofields, Sharps, Henrys, Winchesters, and maybe others.

With modern equipment, is it still so costly to build 1909 copy? Reason I query this is those clones I mentioned seem to be multiplying. A couple of years ago I picked up a brand new 1911A1 clone made in the Phillipines (SAM). It was less than $400. It was exactly what I wanted; plain vanilla (except they wisely enlarged the sites and not so wisely put the 1911 flat backstrap on it). Works great. I do not need or want a 2 or 3 thousand dollar...I am not a bullseye shooter or a high line practical pistol contender.

Got a little off my point there. There are high quality firearms available that don't have astounding price tags. Just thinkin' out loud. I wonder if those of us who do like those big old Colts might express our interest and get something going.

Have a great day!

AAW
 
S&W has their 1917 available in their Classic line of models. One of the local gunshops has one of these done in blue with a great looking colour case hardened mainframe and cover. Pricey though but then we only live once, right?
 
S&W...nah! Colt 1909! And, how about 1858 ballistics?

I've had a bunch of S&Ws over the years. Mostly good guns...several of them had to be worked over by a competent smith before they even functioned correctly. In 70s and 80s, in my experience, S&W has major QC problems. Anyway, I still own a 629 which has probably had less that 1000 rds through it. I resisted getting a "big maggie" from '56 (even I was too young to procure one when it was introduced) until the late 80s. Anything that big ought to have a shoulder stock. I like 9mm, .45ACP, .357, whatever. It just ain't all that much fun to shoot it for me.

Anyway, getting back to my unfired 1858 clone. Anybody got ballistic specs on it.

And, the 1909 seems to me to be the last of the old school which is why I'd like to see a shooter of reasonable cost available. If I found a really slick original I'd probably feel guilty shooting it.

Be well,

AAW
 
Well...the Colt 'New Service' Revolvers were kind of their own thing.


They were in production from 1898 till the avent of WWII.


They are a larger Revolver than the S & W N-Frames, and, have their own unique details and presence.


They cost what they cost, and, usually, they are not cheap.

None the less, they are well worth it, good looking, fine quality, and a joy to own and shoot.


If Colt were to begin making them again, I am sure they would have to be very expensive, and, that there would be some sales, but, not enough to justify making them again.



I doubt anyone else would bother, since there would not be much of a market for them.


The M1909 was simply a Colt New Service intended for Army use, and intended for a Frankfurt Arsenal version of the .45 Colt Cartridge which was down loaded from the civillian version and also had a different Rim, and thus the M1909 would not be my first choice to own and shoot, or instead, the Civilian or Commercial Model in .45 Colt, would be and is my first choice.
 
For reasons I won't go into right now because I lack the time...

The Army needed .45 revolvers, and they need them quick, because they had a hot little insurrection going on in the Philippine Islands. They had 1873 Single Action Army's, but they were obsolete. The .45 cartridges they had on hand were special ones, designed to be used in both the Colt SAA and S&W Schofield. To make matters worse they were loaded with black powder. Last but not least, what was to become the 1911 .45 pistol was still undergoing development.

So they went to Colt (after turning down Smith & Wesson's triple-lock) and ordered commercial New Service revolvers with 5 1/2" barrels. They were chambered in .45 (long) Colt. The only change that was made besides government markings was plain walnut stocks that were slightly thinner and more rounded than the hard rubber kind.

Frankfort Arsenal made new (to them) .45 cartridges that were dimensionally the same as regular .45 Colt, but with slightly larger rims. They were loaded with the same powder charge and 255-grain bullet used in the .45 Colt. I know because I own one of the guns, and several original cartridges.

To change the subject. These older Colt’s were exceptionally fine revolvers, and what made them that, was that the lockwork parts were oversized a certain places so they could be individually fitted by a highly skilled and experienced final assembler. This hand fitting, which is no longer viable from an economic point of view, is the reason they can’t be duplicated using modern technology – unless they are made like current day Smith & Wesson’s with “drop-in” MIM parts.
 
Here's a Civillian one, made in 1912 or so, .45 Colt -




Early 1990s I hired on to assit with a very rural Tree Survey for some subset of the Dep't of the Interior, way up in the Mountains of Northern Nevada...hiked my caboose off too.

Carried this one on my Hip, and handfull of Cartridges in my Trouser Pocket, and a full Box of Cartridges in my Haversack...I did not ask permission, and, no body ever said a peep about it. I expect the other fellows were glad I had it along, since no one else brought anything for Firearms, and you never know who or what you can run into up there.


Cigarettes are for scale, as I had done some images showing the size difference of the 'New Service' to the 'Army Special' a few months back, and kept this one, having deleted the others.
 
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There is a big frame Colt still available. Its the Anaconda. I see them for $900.00 or so used. I dont think they make them anymore. Not a New Service but still a Colt. Had 2 New Services, one in 45 Colt and one in 44 Special. Like to have them back. The New Service could be reproduced with a simplified action and that could be made cheaper. I would get one.
 
I'm not a collector; but I'm from a military family and as a result I've inherited a small arsenal.

And amongst that arsenal is a 1909 army issue Colt Revolver (plain walnut stocks, army markings, etc.). The double action on it works perfectly and aside from a little tarnish the thing seems to be in great shape. I'm really tempted to take this sucker out to the firing range and give it a go with some .45 rounds; but I don't want to risk damaging the gun.

So considering the gun's rarity I'm wondering if its safe to take it out to the range or not?
 
I think it was Phil Sharpe who said the 1909 service load from Frankfort Arsenal was loaded with smokeless to about the velocity of the .45 Government/Schofield, 750 fps, not the 900 fps of the old 1873 load.
The main powder was RSQ, pronounced "rescue" developed so that a double charge would not (quite) wreck the gun. Seems the FA loading machine tended to drop an occasional double charge which was enough Bullseye to demolish even a New Service.

I wonder why they used a variant of the .45 Colt in 1909.
In 1906 the Army specified the ammunition to be used in candidates for the new service pistol. The eventual .45 ACP was very close to what Colt was already making the 1905 for and the revolver cartridge that was never used was the same thing with an .060" rim. Not the 1920 Auto Rim.
 
implodinggoat said:
I'm not a collector; but I'm from a military family and as a result I've inherited a small arsenal.

And amongst that arsenal is a 1909 army issue Colt Revolver (plain walnut stocks, army markings, etc.). The double action on it works perfectly and aside from a little tarnish the thing seems to be in great shape. I'm really tempted to take this sucker out to the firing range and give it a go with some .45 rounds; but I don't want to risk damaging the gun.

So considering the gun's rarity I'm wondering if its safe to take it out to the range or not?
Click to expand...
Hi!

I am not a gunsmith or engineer, but that is a big sturdy revolver which was built with smokeless powder in mind. If I owned it, I would get a box of .45 Colt (sometimes known as .45 Long Colt), and shoot the sucker. If you have an urge to sell, please let me know.

If you are really worried about shooting it, have somebody who is "gunwise", eyeball it. I think you do not have to worry if it is in the condition you describe.

Al W
 
Jim Watson said:
I think it was Phil Sharpe who said the 1909 service load from Frankfort Arsenal was loaded with smokeless to about the velocity of the .45 Government/Schofield, 750 fps, not the 900 fps of the old 1873 load.
The main powder was RSQ, pronounced "rescue" developed so that a double charge would not (quite) wreck the gun. Seems the FA loading machine tended to drop an occasional double charge which was enough Bullseye to demolish even a New Service.

I wonder why they used a variant of the .45 Colt in 1909.
In 1906 the Army specified the ammunition to be used in candidates for the new service pistol. The eventual .45 ACP was very close to what Colt was already making the 1905 for and the revolver cartridge that was never used was the same thing with an .060" rim. Not the 1920 Auto Rim.
Click to expand...
Frankford Arsenal went with a special cartridge with a slightly wider rim to ensure positive ejection, as standard .45 Colt shells with their petite rims sometimes managed to slip under the ejector star (since, I imagine, when one is being shot at; they might not always remember to point the gun straight up and apply a swift firm stroke with the ejector.)

It also had the happy side-effect of keeping the cartridges from finding their way into the Colt M1902 revolvers (a Colt 1878 with an enlarged trigger guard, longer trigger, and stiffer mainspring which was the first gun that went over to the Philippines when the Army started clamoring for a double-action .45 over in that part of the world,) and whatever elderly 1873s that might've still been kicking around.
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

Since its been sitting around for decades I think I'll go and get the gun thoroughly serviced and cleaned then grab some .45 long colt rounds (I only have .45 ACP rounds on hand at the moment) and give it a go.

PS: Zsnark since it was my great grandfather's gun I don't really have any interest in selling it unless I get in dire financial straits; but if I do I'll contact you before I have to sell a kidney on the black market.
 
I am not a gunsmith or engineer, but that is a big sturdy revolver which was built with smokeless powder in mind. If I owned it, I would get a box of .45 Colt (sometimes known as .45 Long Colt), and shoot the sucker.
Click to expand...

True, but that was by 1909 smokeless standards...

At this point the revolver is (give or take) 100 years old, as the last ones were shipped during 1911. You can shoot current day .45 Colt cartridges in it which are usually loaded with 250 grain lead roundnose bullets.

However be sure they are standard loads - not Plus-P, and that the crane stays rock-tight against the frame when the cylinder is latched. Also that when the revolver is thumb-cocked the bolt doesn't come up short and fail to enter the cylinder notch, on all chambers.

Last or not least, if one of the century old internal parts happens to give up and break you may have a dificult time finding a correct (whatever) to replace it and a gunsmith that really knows how to fit it.

Don't let a "little" turn out to be too much.
 
At this point the revolver is (give or take) 100 years old,
Click to expand...

Darned if I am not ready to call that an advantage, not a liability.

I have seen FAR more Internet News of late production guns breaking or blowing up than of reasonably well preserved antiques failing.
 
Here is mine Circa. 1906 Colt New Service (Old Model) 45 Long Colt, along with period ad for the Colt 1917. Prices have changed alot in 105 years,wouldn't you agree! IMG_1414.jpg
 
Actually, M1909 cartridges will fit and fire in a Model 1873, but it becomes a "three shooter" because the rims are too big for two rounds to fit together in the cylinder.

Which gets back to why the small rim. Well, the Army wanted a .45 caliber and Colt had a bunch of .44 machinery and tooling, and wanted to keep the cylinder small enough that they could use as much of the .44 tooling as possible. So the .45 Colt ended up with a tiny rim that mattered not at all in the Model 1873 (ejector rod, remember) but was a problem in the Model 1909, and in a lot of rifles, which is why rifle makers didn't chamber for the .45 Colt until recently when (shock! surprise!) they found it doesn't work too well due to the small rim.

Jim
 
1st, there was the 45 Colt.
2nd, there was the 45 Smith & Wesson, aka Schofield
3rd, there was the 45 Government, aka 45 Short Colt, essentially the 45 S&W with a narrower rim.
4th, the 45 Revolver, for the 1909 New Service, wide rim, long case, but the short's ballistics. (230 grain bullet at 700 some odd fps. That's what's marked on the box I have.)

The 45 Revolver will not chamber in my Uberti Cattleman, period, due to the wide rim.

Ever since the advent of the 45 S&W, the army stuck with it's ballistics, through the 45 Government, the 45 Revolver, and even the 45 ACP. Apparently they thought the 45 Colt's recoil to be a bit much.
 
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