Colt Python "Out of time"

[Dudedog]

I have an older Python. about 1964 vintage. It appears to be a little out of time. I have heard this is usually due to wear on the hand. Is this usually the cause? Also I have watched a dissambley video and it appears to be easy enough to replace the hand. Is this the case or am I missing something? Does the replacement part have to be fitted to any other parts?
I can certainly take it to the gunsmith in town (don't know how good he is on Pythons) but if I can do it myself I would like to save the money.

Also any thoughts on what else might need to be replaced due to wear? (it is almost 50!)

I see that Brownells has what appears to be a book concerning the Python
http://www.brownells.com/books-videos/books/gunsmithing-books/handgun-gunsmithing-books/the-colt-double-action-revolvers-a-shop-manual-prod25720.aspx
HERITAGE GUN BOOKS - THE COLT DOUBLE-ACTION REVOLVERS - A SHOP MANUAL

Is it necessary? (I would like it anyway sometime but funds are tight right now)
Does anyone have it and is it worth purchasing?

Thanks

 

[dfariswheel]

The hand in the Colt IS NOT an easy installation. Like most action parts of the Python the hand requires extensive fitting and adjusting.

Second, no new genuine Colt hands are available. What you'll find is either a used hand or a new made "replica" that requires even more extensive work before you can even begin to install and adjust it.
Used hands have already been altered and may not be usable at all in your gun.

The Kuhnhausen book is THE book to have if you own a Colt, even if you don't intend to do your own work. It's worth it just to understand the critical Colt timing and to know if it's right or not.

In most cases the proper repair for a timing issue related to the hand is not to replace it, it's to stretch it.
Note that the hand is not stretched where or how you might expect.
The Kuhnhausen shop manual shows in detail how the hand is stretched and the proper tool to do it with.

The hand can be stretched ONE TIME, then it needs to be replaced if timing goes out again.

Last, under NO circumstances take your Python to any local gunsmith. Virtually no one these days understand the old Colt action ore are qualified to repair or adjust them. In too many cases what you get back is a gun with the original problem not corrected, and other problems caused by incorrect attempts to fix the first problem.

If you don't feel up to tackling the work after looking at the Kuhnhausen manual either send the gun to Colt or to Frank Glenn in Arizona.
Note that sometimes a hand just shatters instead of stretching, especially if you don't have correct tools and do it right.
Then you'll have to send it to Colt for replacement.

 

[Leadbutt]

Don't know Frank Green, but if he is backed up talk with Cylinder & Slide, have had them work on COlts before and they are top shelf

 

[Jim K]

If the cylinder carries up in normal operation (when not holding the cylinder back manually), I would do nothing. I have seen Colts come from the factory that will not carry up when the hammer is cocked slowly or the cylinder retarded, but will carry up fine when the trigger is pulled normally. Unless you are getting off center strikes or lead shaving, trying to have the gun "fixed" is not (IMHO) worth taking a chance on damaging that Python.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Jim

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I am with Jim K.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks everybody.

As I suspected it is easy enough to take out and put back in but installing a replacement part is a different story.

I was just thinking if it was something I could easily (inexpensively) resolve I would do it. But it sounds like it would need to be shipped to someone so I would most likely be looking at $300-$400 to get it repaired.
Right now the gun seems to shoot ok so I may just follow Jim Ks advice and leave it alone.

PS: No luck with the Library having the book.

 

[Old Fuff]

Before you worry about the hand, check to see if the crane is sprung (bent).

The crane is the hinge part the cylinder is attached to, and swings the cylinder out when you unlatch it.

Check the cylinder to be sure that all of the chambers are unloaded and then close and latch it. Then turn the gun around so you are looking at the front from the muzzle end. Hold he revolver so that you can place a forefinger on each side of the cylinder and press it out and in (left and right, we are not at this point interested in rotational movement). Notice if the crane can be wiggled away from the frame. If it can - even a small amount - this can cause the cylinder to be out of time.

Also if they're is a issue with the hand it may be because the pin in it is slightly bent, not because the teeth are worn.

For these reasons (and they're others a well) you need to first have the gun examined by someone who knows what they are doing - and they're not many left. It may be determined that it can be fixed with no part replacements being necessary.

The manual you mentioned is in my opinion worth the price, which is about $30.00; not because you can use it to make your own repairs - which would likely be a mistake, but because after reading it you would have a much better idea about what makes your Python tick and be able to make informed judgments about having it serviced and by whom.

 

[Dudedog]

Yes, if I should not trust it to just any gunsmith making repairs myself would probably be a major mistake.
Strongly thinking about leaving it alone for now since it is not bad but would appreciate (more) recommendations for people I should be able to trust to fix it right.

Thanks:

 

[dfariswheel]

Not Frank Green, it's Frank Glenn.
He's a top Colt expert and seems to work faster and cheaper then Cylinder & Slide.

Still the preferred Python repair source is Colt.

Frank Glenn:

http://www.glenncustom.com/

Your Colt is not working correctly and to keep it in good shape you really need to get it repaired, especially while people like Colt and Glenn are still working on them and parts are available.
The hand is a normal maintenance item in the Python, like putting spark plugs in a car.
If you have a very expensive car that's missing, you don't just keep driving it.
If you don't get it repaired it only gets worse and causes other problems that cost even more to repair.
Here's what master Colt gunsmith Grant Cunningham has to say about it:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/colt_python_delicate.html

 

[Dudedog]

OK now I am feeling guilty that it is not as good as it could be.
I can feel my wallet just thinking about it....

 

[Jim K]

I have read that Cunningham article before. What is interesting is that he first flatly denies that the Colt action is in any way delicate, then spends the rest of the article proving that it is and needs careful attention by a master craftsman every whipstich (as my mother used to say).

I don't claim to know as much about those Colts as the gunsmiths mentioned, but I have worked on a lot of them and IMHO, the term for the action is not really "delicate" or "refined" as much as "antiquated". Nor is it that original, being mostly based on an old European design.

It was definitely an improvement over the disastrous DA Models 1877, 1878, 1889 and 1892, but Colt never made any real effort to improve it or make it more reliable; instead they preferred to tell buyers how great the guns were and trade on their name. With the exception of the positive hammer block safety, they made almost no improvements from c. 1908 to the time of the redesigned lockwork c. 1970, which was never applied across the product line.

Of course, Colt fans say that perfection didn't need improvement, then talk of routine overhauls, costly "tuneup" work, and the need for only high priests specially blessed to work on Colts.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

IMHO, the term for the action is not really "delicate" or "refined" as much as "antiquated".

My thoughts exactly!

My first excursion into the inner workings of a Colt DA was in 1962 when I was a 18 year old high school student.

My best friends 1917 Colt timing went south on him, to the point it wouldn't lock up, and I took it apart and fixed it for him.
Without a book, or internet instructions, or spare parts.

The thing is, you either probably can do it, or you can't?

I have always been pretty good enough at figuring out things like that my whole life.

But I would NOT recommend anyone starting out on a Python for practice either!!

rc

 

[Jim K]

Most folks have no idea how many changes S&W made to their lockwork over the century plus from the Model 1899 to the present. Even some who consider themselves S&W experts think only of the number of frame screws or the front ejector lock or MIM parts. They have no idea how complex that first design was and how tiny and "refined" the whole mechanism was. Some of those changes were made to reduce costs, but most made the guns much more reliable and far less likely to need major repairs.

The "neat" part was that S&W made dozens of changes and yet kept the outward appearance (up to the change to accommodate the lock) so much the same that most people never knew they were made. I guess the S&W mechanism wasn't perfection itself, like the Colt, so it could be made better.

Jim

 

[Peter M. Eick]

You hit that point on the S&W. I recently bought a 38/44 Outdoorsman Transition (1947) that someone had tried to fit a 1950 internal safety block in. It fits but the gun won't fire. The dealer I had would not sell the gun in an obvious non-working condition so they had to find a transition safety block that would fit. It took them over a month to make one work.

Getting back on the Python. I am worried about my Pythons timing but they keep hanging in there as I bang away with them. I have put a lot of full power loads down them and no issues so far. So based upon a very limited sample of a few, I would argue they seem to hold up well to full power loads if you don't abuse on them.

 

[Jim K]

Timing has little to do with the power of the loads; wear has a greater effect. IMHO, though, the greatest cause of timing problems with Colts is people trying to fix the timing. Left alone, those guns will work OK for many years of firing. But a lot of internet "experts" have preached that a Colt should carry up even if you put a pipe wrench on the cylinder and folks try to make their guns do that.

I worked in a gun shop in the 60's when Colt was still making first class revolvers, and I saw a lot come right out the factory box that were "out of time" according to today's experts. The Colt people told me that if the cylinder carried up when the trigger was pulled, things were OK by factory specs, even if it didn't when the gun was cocked slowly or the cylinder held back. If the primer strikes were centered, the cylinder was properly aligned at the time of firing, and timing was OK.

Jim