Colt: The Continued Soap Opera.

[Aragon]

That's not true.

First, Rolls-Royce's drawing were complete and accurate. Second, it was not Packard, but Ford (UK Ford).

Some time in mid 1939, the UK Air Ministry asked Ford (UK) if they could make the Merlin after showing them Rolls-Royce's drawings in a meeting with the AM and RR. They said "no, those drawing are not to your standards."

The problem was not that the drawing were incomplete or lacking information. They had numerous places were things were noted as "FILE TO FIT" or "HAND LAP". Ford felt that improved tolerancing callout would improve interchangeability and speed production. Ford (UK) redrew the drawing along with RR engineers the establish good production tolerances and simplified a few areas for mass production.

Those were the drawing that were given to Packard. Packard may have redrawn them to meet their needs, but the heavy lifting was already done, and the Merlin was produced at Packard without much difficulty. They were given the plans in Sept 1940, and the first Merlin XX rolled off the line in August 1941. That's pretty good.

In addition Ford (US) either could not or would not build this engine in the US. There are a number of potential reasons for this. Ford was already involved in a huge amount of military contracting for the war effort. Henry Ford I was also becoming a bit more "unstable" (and testy) due his advanced age (his battles with Gen. Wm. Knudsen were well known) and FoMoCo's expertise was simply better put to use elsewhere.

 

[Aragon]

No doubt that is a lot of it. I've worked for some top notch companies and some pretty poor ones.

I got a big surprise when I first started at my latest company. A production worker brought me a part that was out of spec and asked me if it was OK. I measured it, looked at the print, looked at the print from the mating part and said, yes, it will work. Let me fill out a product deviation form, we will have to do a corrective action to keep the machining error from happening again, and I'll submit a change request to update the drawing to change the tolerance. The guy just looked at me dumbfounded. All the current engineers would just say yes, or no without any documentation. When I took the product deviation form to the area supervisor he asked what it was. In the 2 years he had worked for the company he had never seen one! This was a publically traded company with 2015 sales of $3.8 Billion!

So if Colt is like the companies you have worked for all the paperwork will be in order. If it is like the company I most recently worked for, all bets are off.

You did this work as a product/design engineer? I'm curious as to why there wasn't a great deal of pressure and follow through by manufacturing (and/or quality assurance) to make certain the design was updated?

Anywhere I have worked, a defective part as you described would have to go through a material review board -- which might indeed be a handful of people huddled out on the shop floor -- but there would still be someone in charge of the MRB process (product quality assurance) that would monitor/drive the corrective action.

My very first major quality issue in a production environment was two weeks after I graduated from college and began work as a manufacturing engineer. Three nuts weren't being tightened enough on units in production causing a great deal of costly rework.

I asked the two guys on the line who did this operation to show me their process. They were using box wrenches (access was very difficult) and it was very tedious and difficult. Turns out the guy who normally did this job was on vacation -- it took two to replace him. I then talked to another tech who had trained the guy on vacation (he was now in another part of the plant) about the operation.

He opened his tool chest and took out a Snap-On box wrench that had been expertly bent and ground for relief. He had made it himself when no one would listen to him and he had made another for the guy on vacation.

I borrowed the wrench, measured/sketched it and then trained the guys doing the work to use it. I then created a tooling drawing for the file replete with a tooling #.

Not all quality issues begin in product design...

 

[JSH1]

You did this work as a product/design engineer? I'm curious as to why there wasn't a great deal of pressure and follow through by manufacturing (and/or quality assurance) to make certain the design was updated?

My title was Product Engineer but that is kind of misleading because I was not assigned product lines that I had responsibility for. The primary job was to provide drawings and other technical documents for new projects that were going out for bid. We would also design any new parts needed for that project. If our company won the bid then the Product Engineer would also work as a Project Manager to make sure the parts got out the door on time. Our secondary role was to provide product and manufacturing support for existing products. (The facility I worked in was a foundry with about 5000 patterns) There were 3 engineers and we took projects and production problems based on who was the least busy.

There was no pressure from above to keep documents current or even ensure product quality. I was criticized multiple times by our Production Manager for reject parts "just because they don't match the print".

 

[Aragon]

My title was Product Engineer but that is kind of misleading because I was not assigned product lines that I had responsibility for. The primary job was to provide drawings and other technical documents for new projects that were going out for bid. We would also design any new parts needed for that project. If our company won the bid then the Product Engineer would also work as a Project Manager to make sure the parts got out the door on time. Our secondary role was to provide product and manufacturing support for existing products. (The facility I worked in was a foundry with about 5000 patterns) There were 3 engineers and we took projects and production problems based on who was the least busy.

There was no pressure from above to keep documents current or even ensure product quality. I was criticized multiple times by our Production Manager for reject parts "just because they don't match the print".

I'm sincerely glad I don't work in such an environment. Back when I was a production manager, I would have been removed from the position for expressing that mindset if I had done so in front of senior management.

 

[gearhead]

I have been a Product Design Engineer for over 30 years with multiple companies, quite a few companies still only document minor tolerance tweaks in the form of a file cabinet full of approved deviations. I prefer to not work that way, it's poor design and documentation practice but based on my experience it's not uncommon in companies whose systems were all set up prior to the '70s and whose annual output of any one specific product never exceeds 50K-60K units.

 

[Aragon]

I have been a Product Design Engineer for over 30 years with multiple companies, quite a few companies still only document minor tolerance tweaks in the form of a file cabinet full of approved deviations. I prefer to not work that way, it's poor design and documentation practice but based on my experience it's not uncommon in companies whose systems were all set up prior to the '70s and whose annual output of any one specific product never exceeds 50K-60K units.

That's far from optimal, but it's a far cry from "going commando" on the shop floor. In any event I was responding to earlier nonsense like:

"...Drawings didn't become critical until automated machine technology was adopted during the latter 1960's/early 1970's.

And even if they did exist they would be out-of-date for the manufacturing technologies and machinery currently used today..."

Engineering drawings have been "critical" for as long as they have been in use -- "automated machine technology" has nothing to do with this. I'm sure the engineering drawings created by Winchester from John Browning's working guns or models in the late 19th Century were quite "critical."

Further, product design drawings (as you obviously know) define the part/product and not the manufacturing processes making the second comment absurd as well.

 

[DPris]

Getting kinda pointless & far afield in the overall discussion of what's going on at Colt.
Denis

 

[wojownik]

Denis - I rather agree. So among other rather interesting developments over the past few days, a Native American tribe is making sounds about stepping up to acquire Colt. The *Morongo Band of Mission Indians, to be specific.

Story here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/30/colt-def-bankruptcy-tribe-idUSL1N0ZG16U20150630

 

[DPris]

Just gets more bizarre as time goes on.

That'd make a whole bunch of sense: A West coast Indian tribe who knows nothing whatever about the gunmaking biz buying a Connecticut gunmaker with organizational problems.
Denis

 

[JSH1]

Just gets more bizarre as time goes on.

That'd make a whole bunch of sense: A West coast Indian tribe who knows nothing whatever about the gunmaking biz buying a Connecticut gunmaker with organizational problems.
Denis

Considering the current bid for Colt is $0, I would expect someone might be interested.

 

[wojownik]

Considering the current bid for Colt is $0, I would expect someone might be interested.

Actually, the game is reset in a way. The secured creditors and bond holders came together and reconciled their competing DIP financing proposals. This means that the timeline for the sale of Colt is being reset by the court, and that Sciens stalking horse $0 bid is a moot issues.

http://www.law360.com/articles/671787/colt-creditors-achieve-detente-with-new-75m-dip

From what I'm hearing, Sciens is not happy about this at all, they've been squeezed to the side (at least for the moment). and the inside sale scheme may have collapsed.

 

[DPris]

JS,
Someone may very well be interested, but the idea of tribal ownership of Colt fails to fill me with confidence.

And that's NOT a slap at that tribe, just noting that what Colt does not need is a new ownership looking to diversify their portfolio in an industry they know nothing about.
Denis

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm not sure that any tribe knew anything about the casino/hotel/entertainment business (think Las Vegas) before they found out that there was a huge opportunity there. They had zero experience in that industry but hired people who did. We have a very successful Indian owned casino just a few miles form here. There are many in this state.

One needs to consider the advantages tribes have in business. They don't pay any taxes to the state. They aren't regulated by building codes, environmental BS, business licenses and many other things that are normal operating expenses for most businesses. They can also secure Gov't contracts, loans and training assistance much easier than a non-tribal business.

I could see the Morongo tribe owning Colt. They manage the oldest and most successful casino in CA. They built a 250m resort 10 years ago..

If you don't live in the west you probably haven't seen any of these high dollar casinos or resorts or whatever you want to call them.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I'm not sure that any tribe knew anything about the casino/hotel/entertainment business (think Las Vegas) before they found out that there was a huge opportunity there. They had zero experience in that industry but hired people who did. We have a very successful Indian owned casino just a few miles form here. There are many in this state.

One needs to consider the advantages tribes have in business. They don't pay any taxes to the state. They aren't regulated by building codes, environmental BS, business licenses and many other things that are are normal operating expenses for most businesses. They can also secure Gov't contracts, loans and training assistance much easier than a non-tribal business.

I could see the Morongo tribe owning Colt. They manage the oldest and most successful casino in CA. They just built a 250m resort.

If you don't live in the west you probably haven't seen any of these high dollar casinos or resorts or whatever you want to call them.

Not true, there at least two Indian casinos in Connecticut, one about 45 minutes from Colt's HQ....

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I might get beat with a stick for this, but the best thing that could ever happen to colt is if the Japanese started making them. I have a pre-tang safety Japanese/Browning copy of a Winchester 92 in 357mag and it is just as good as any Winchester ever made.

 

[DPris]

I do live in the West.
The gambling industry is vastly different from the firearms industry.
Denis

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yes sir, Foxwood looks like a big one.

26.5 B from all Indian owned casinos in 2010.

From the looks of it they control a considerable amount of wealth in the US.

A company like Colt would be small potatoes for some of those tribes.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I do live in the West.
The gambling industry is vastly different from the firearms industry.
Denis

I take that to mean that you think a tribe couldn't manage that type of business.

Or it would take someone who is already in that business to be able to manage it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just not sure why you think that.

You can hire people to run a business. Maybe someone like yourself who might know people in the business, have run a business of this type and can turn a profit with someone else's capital. Lots of room here for everybody.

 

[wojownik]

I do live in the West.
The gambling industry is vastly different from the firearms industry.
Denis

Not if you're a Colt bondholder! Ba da bing!

Seriously though what would be the difference between an outside equity investor like a Native American tribe vs Sciens? Especially if a Native American group decided not to pillage the company's profits, reinvest and retain key staff?

And what if they reinvested some of the future profits in to cultivating a skilled labor force - additional job training and job opportunities for Native Americans? Yes it would take years and maybe even decades of attention, but imagine a highly skilled workforce of craftsmen and artisans (including engraving) at extraordinarily competitive wage rates?

I'm still rather uncertain as to Colts long-term future without a strategic investor from within the industry ... But I kind of like the potential angles that a Native American investment group may bring.

PS talk about playing off of liberal guilt ! An evil gun company owned by historically oppressed Native American tribes ... What to do? what to do?

 

[Aragon]

I might get beat with a stick for this, but the best thing that could ever happen to colt is if the Japanese started making them. I have a pre-tang safety Japanese/Browning copy of a Winchester 92 in 357mag and it is just as good as any Winchester ever made.

Why? Colt doesn't have product quality issues today. They build high quality products.

 

[DPris]

IF the tribe were successful in bidding, and IF they had enough business acumen to find an effective management team, and IF the tribe then stayed out of it, there might be a chance.

But, I doubt it.

Managing an industry where it truly is a matter of "If you build it (casino) they (public) will come", is far different from running a manufacturing operation where you have to persuade people your product is worth putting money on.
Denis

 

[MAKster]

The statement from the tribe just sounds like a publicity stunt. Piggybacking on an existing story for some free media attention.

 

[barnbwt]

"You took out guns!"
"You took out land!"



TCB

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Why? Colt doesn't have product quality issues today. They build high quality products.

Not denying that Colt makes a good product, but they don't have competitive prices. Just look at their SAAs! They are twice what Ruger or Uberti can make. Yes, I know a Ruger and Uberti are not Colts, but at twice the price they aren't even trying to appeal to the Cowboy action crowd.

The double action revolver market they completely abandoned in spite of a huge and growing concealed carry market.

 

[DPris]

The Peacemaker, done the way Colt does it, is simply an expensive gun to manufacture, and Colt doesn't make much profit off the model as it is.
They can't compete with the Italians.
They tried, with the cheaper-all-round Cowboy & the market wasn't interested enough to keep that model going.

The DAs have been discussed ad nauseaum; the market wasn't buying those in enough volume to keep 'em going.

Colt does need to be more competitive, but in other areas besides mere pricing.
Denis