Commission 88 Mauser project

[EMT_stuart]

Hello, all. Last year as a reward to myself for a successful fire season, I scooped up a sporterized 1888 Commission Rifle that had been re-barreled to 7.62x39mm. Sweet! A project scout rifle. Unfortunately, the head spacing was pretty off, and the bore slugged out to around .297 or so. Oh well. It was cheap!

So here's the conundrum. How would I get a barrel for her that isn't 7.92x57mm? I would love to get a 16 to 18 inch .308 barrel made and fitted without breaking the bank. Would look great with an M1 Carbine bayonet lug and a parkerized finish too. Any advice? Any alternate cartridge recommendations that would still take to Mauser stripper clips?

 

[tark]

I'm thinking that the 308 round is a bit much for your rifle to handle. It might not be, I don't know to what pressure levels the early 7.92 ammunition was loaded. Someone with more knowledge will weigh in.

Mauser stripper clips will accept and function with with a wide number of cartridges

 

[boom boom]

Hate to break it to you but the Commission 88 aka GEW 88 is not suitable for modern high pressure cartridges due to its metallurgy and perhaps problematic heat treatment--basically case hardened carbon steel (although I am sure that some people have done so). You are talking about the metallurgy of 1880's and early 1890's here.

I suspect that your firearm's previous owner put a small ring Mauser barrel on which has a shorter shank but same general thread pitch and close to the same (.980" v. .986" (original GEW 88 specs)) diameter which is why it might have headspace issues. A small ring Mauser barrel will screw into a GEW 88 receiver but the barrel shank on the GEW 88 is .720" while a Mauser 93 etc. is .645" in length.

Now, the 8mm Mauser itself is no slouch and would take down most animals found in the US. The major reason that some rebarrelled them apart from being cheap is 8mm used to be hard to get and a lot of people complained that 8mmx57 is underloaded in the U.S.. That is because the original GEW 88 used .318 bores J bores instead of the later .323 aka S bores. Firing a modern hot (Euro loads) 8mm x57 round in a GEW 88 with a.323 diameter bullet is a blowup waiting to happen. Europeans distinguish between the two on the ammo box. The U.S. mfgs did not believe that Bubba was smart enough to buy the right ammo and thus underloaded it pressure wise so that Bubba could not sue them.

Your options are--A) rebarrel in a suitable pressure cartridge of the era but not sure how it would handle rimmed cartridges because the GEW 88 uses a clip feeding system like a Mannlicher. A 7x57 Mauser, a 7.65 Argentine/Belgium, or an 8x57 Mauser might be suitable if you use ammo loaded to the original pressure limit of about 35000 psi. The 1905 revision of the GEW 88 included rebarrelling for a the WWI era 154 gr 8x57 and these barrels are stamped S at the breech end just before the barrel shank. Sarco did have some carbine barrrels for the GEW 88 in 17.5 inch barrels but not sure whether these are S or J bores (look under the Mauser section as I don't think that they have a separate section for Commission Rifles). Numrich also has some of the long issue barrels but not sure whether these are S or J barrels as well. Prices for these were under $100. These barrels are pretty thin as the Germans used a steel jacket barrel shroud which had the sights on these. I would not D&T these barrels or cut dovetails etc. for safety reasons. Sweat on front sights coupled with receiver sights or scoping could be an alternative apart from reinstalling a barrel shroud.

B) Part it out--depending on the condition of the bolt (there are some Chinese made bolts and receivers that are absolutely horribly made), the bolt alone in complete condition (assuming Bubba did not screw up the bolt head in the conversion) brings 150-200 on fleabay and so forth.

C) pay a gunsmith to take a barrel blank and make a new barrel for it--I suspect that a small ring Mauser barrel could be adapted pretty easily via a bit of lathework. It will still not make it appropriate for a modern high pressure cartridge but it will probably have superior accuracy and perhaps safety over a 1890's era milsurp barrel.

D) Send it down the road by selling it and avoiding a money pit. Buy a modern rifle that shoots .308 at the low end. It will be more accurate and certainly more safe along with costing less.

E) Make a wall hanger out of it. Shot out barrels are around, etc. to make a good conversation piece.

Here is a discussion about that very topic:
http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?/topic/3300-gew-88-sporters/

 

[Slamfire]

Hate to break it to you but the Commission 88 aka GEW 88 is not suitable for modern high pressure cartridges due to its metallurgy and perhaps problematic heat treatment--basically case hardened carbon steel (although I am sure that some people have done so). You are talking about the metallurgy of 1880's and early 1890's here.

Another outstanding post Boom, Boom!.

Look at the book "German Military Rifles , 88 and 91 firearms" by Dieter Storz. Mr Storz has a significant section on the "Judenflinten" (Jewish Gun) scandal and metallurgical failures of the 1888 Commission rifles. The 1888 was an early smokeless round, the metals of the era, plain carbon steels with a lot of slag and impurities, and the occasional Ludwig and Loewe made 1888 blew up. So did the occasional 1888's made by other manufacturers. But the fact that Ludwig and Loewe were Jewish owned, allowed German Anti Semitics to claim:

The next scandal was caused by a pamphlet of (Hermann) Ahlwardt, “ Judenflinten,” (jewish guns) in which he accused the armament firm of Ludwig Lowe of being bribed by the Alliance Israelite of Paris to deliver inferior guns to the Prussian Army , so that the latter might be defeated in the next war of revenge. The falsity of the charge was proved by a Government official, but it was not until after thousands of copies of the pamphlet had been sold in the streets that it was confiscated, and Ahlwardt, after prosecution, was sentenced to five months imprisonment

Anti-Semitism in Germany. Israel Cohen, 1918
https://archive.org/stream/antisemitisminge00cohe/antisemitisminge00cohe_djvu.txt

When these rifles were new, they had problems with the ammunition of the era. Rebarreling the rifle to cartridges that operate above the proof pressures of those pre 1900 8mm cartridges is unwise in the extreme.

 

[EMT_stuart]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! As to the pressure, I have had some luck making a down-graded load for 8mm Mauser that should feasibly apply well to .308, in theory. Has anyone had experience using anything by Troupe systems / Rhineland Arms? I'm thinking that taking a .308 or .35 Remington small ring barrel to be lathed and fitted by a gunsmith might be the ticket. Hopefully the 49mm case length of the .35 Remington should be long enough to feed reliably without modifying the magazine. Only concern is the short length might be a hindrance to the extra cutting required.

 

[Goosey]

The original load for this rifle was a ~225 gr bullet at about 2075 feet per second. And that from the 29" barrel.

The weak American 170 gr factory loads (35K psi) produce the same energy from a shorter barrel.

 

[boom boom]

Another outstanding post Boom, Boom!.

Look at the book "German Military Rifles , 88 and 91 firearms" by Dieter Storz. Mr Storz has a significant section on the "Judenflinten" (Jewish Gun) scandal and metallurgical failures of the 1888 Commission rifles. The 1888 was an early smokeless round, the metals of the era, plain carbon steels with a lot of slag and impurities, and the occasional Ludwig and Loewe made 1888 blew up. So did the occasional 1888's made by other manufacturers. But the fact that Ludwig and Loewe were Jewish owned, allowed German Anti Semitics to claim:

The next scandal was caused by a pamphlet of (Hermann) Ahlwardt, “ Judenflinten,” (jewish guns) in which he accused the armament firm of Ludwig Lowe of being bribed by the Alliance Israelite of Paris to deliver inferior guns to the Prussian Army , so that the latter might be defeated in the next war of revenge. The falsity of the charge was proved by a Government official, but it was not until after thousands of copies of the pamphlet had been sold in the streets that it was confiscated, and Ahlwardt, after prosecution, was sentenced to five months imprisonment

Anti-Semitism in Germany. Israel Cohen, 1918
https://archive.org/stream/antisemitisminge00cohe/antisemitisminge00cohe_djvu.txt

When these rifles were new, they had problems with the ammunition of the era. Rebarreling the rifle to cartridges that operate above the proof pressures of those pre 1900 8mm cartridges is unwise in the extreme.

Did not know that. I did know from reading sources on Mausers that Peter Mauser was pretty angry about Mauser features being incorporated into an inferior (he felt) rifle for the German Army.

Right back at you regarding your posts--I always learn something new.

O/P. I usually don't like to clutter a thread as I tend to post long. But, from personal experience, I do know that I bought a Commission 88 bolt from Numrich for a Commission rifle restore as a wall hanger. Despite the German mfg stamps on it, the bolt looks to be made of pot metal and it had a bent bolt handle shank--probably because it served as an emergency lug during an overpressure event. Needless to say, my rebuild is a wall hanger rebuild only but the bolt looked so ugly that I bought another from fleabay to use. I was afraid if I straightened the bolt handle, then it would break. I have seen even uglier pictures of Chinese manufactured Commission 88 clones and some of these parts did find their way into rifles over the years.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Part of the problem with 1888 Commission bolts came from what the British did when they went into Turkey after the war. Instead of confiscating the rifles, they merely took and discarded the bolts. Once Ataturk and company took over they contracted (with Czech firms, I believe) to build replacement bolts, but some just wound up with the Chinese junk bolts.
I've picked up an 1888/04 with Turkish markings, a Czech bolt and an "S" marked re-bored barrel that runs very well with U.S. commercial ammo.

 

[someguy2800]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! As to the pressure, I have had some luck making a down-graded load for 8mm Mauser that should feasibly apply well to .308, in theory. Has anyone had experience using anything by Troupe systems / Rhineland Arms? I'm thinking that taking a .308 or .35 Remington small ring barrel to be lathed and fitted by a gunsmith might be the ticket. Hopefully the 49mm case length of the .35 Remington should be long enough to feed reliably without modifying the magazine. Only concern is the short length might be a hindrance to the extra cutting required.

I would warn against re barreling it in any high pressure cartridge like 308 even if you intend to download for it. You won't be around forever and unless you engrave it somehow warning that its unsafe to shoot with commercial loaded ammo your kids or whoever gets there hands on it next will have been given a booby trap waiting to blow up on them.

Was the bore size you slugged the groove or bore diameter? If the bore diameter is .308" or larger I would suggest having the current barrel taken off and have a gunsmith machine the shoulder down to correct the headspace, and put it back on. 7.62x39 should be safe due to the modest pressure and smaller bolt head. 35 remington should be safe too.

 

[tark]

I had an 88 Commission rifle back in the seventies that has a large "S" stamped on the receiver ring. I was told the Germans did that when they converted the rifle to shoot the newer spitzer .323 diameter bullets.

Anybody know about this? Seems like a good way to convert a rifle into a grenade.

 

[Jim Watson]

As I understand it, the "S" conversion included only reaming the chamber neck and throat to accept the larger diameter round, allow easy release, and kind of funnel it into the original bore.
Most had stripper clip guides added and the enbloc magazine altered to take the ammo.
I think such rifles were meant to be issued to support troops who would not be doing much shooting. But who knows what happens when you are losing.

 

[boom boom]

I had an 88 Commission rifle back in the seventies that has a large "S" stamped on the receiver ring. I was told the Germans did that when they converted the rifle to shoot the newer spitzer .323 diameter bullets.

Anybody know about this? Seems like a good way to convert a rifle into a grenade.

They used the WWI std. FB spitzer @154 gr. instead of the later hotter BT WWII 196 grain which was also used in some german machine guns and the k98. I also suspect that these rifles were used in the second or rear ranks in WWI outside of the August and early September of 1914 where the lines were fluid. Thus, carried a lot but fired little compared with the std. GEW98.

Those WWI era GEW 98's were similarly relegated to rear echelon forces in WWII if they were rebarrelled from my understanding.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Many of these elderly guns, like mine. were sent to weapon-poor allies like Turkey once Germany had enough G98s. Even the guys in the rear were handed the newer guns, much to the relief of the unit armorers.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I have a few GEW 88’s in my collection. I have the 88/05 and 88/05/30. I also have a Chinese Hanyang 88. Here are some pics of the Hanyang 88.


I don’t shoot any of my 88’s for the simple fact that I have other rifles to shoot that have stronger action.

To the OP, I would just sell the rifle because, it will just be a money pit that you would most likely never be able to get your money back from.

 

[boom boom]

Here are the GEW 88 bolt pictures--it takes some effort to strip metadata from pix. One is the original German bolt, the other is an altered CZ replacement bolt as referenced above. Significant difference in quality with the CZ bolt demonstrating better construction. At the root of the bolt handle stem, the steel was soft enough to swage so that the bolt cannot be inserted fully through the split halves at the rear of the receiver. It is difficult to see but the bolt's lug is also swaged a bit and you should be able to see the imperial mark on the bolt stem.

There are also two different bolt heads with one nearly encircling the case head and one that doesn't and two firing pin nuts where one has a small gas shield while the other does not. FWIW, the one nearly encircling the case head and the firing pin nut that has the small gas shield are considered a bit safer if gas escapes from the firing chamber. Compare it with a Mauser 98's better gas features and there are significant differences in the Mauser 98's design. I would not doubt that after the fiasco mentioned by Slamfire above that Peter Mauser took advantage of that to tout his new design. Replacement of millions of GEW 88 rifles in less than a decade by the Germans with the M. 98 must have been caused by something pretty significant. After all, the Austrians and Italians stuck with their Mannlicher magazines and the related French Berthiers soldiered on throughout WWI as mainline weapons-so it wasn't solely a stripper clip versus a true ammo clip.

GunnyUSMC probably has enough milsurps to open his own firearms museum and if he says abandon all ye hopes to sporterize it in a cost effective way, he is probably correct. By the time that you bought a new barrel blank, had it threaded and headspaced, it might easily run hundreds of dollars in parts and labor. And might actually be worth the same or less than when you started.

A sportered Springfield 1903, for example, are selling for about half or less of what an untouched Springfield in military trim is worth. Drilling and tapping a receiver alone can halve the value as it cannot be easily undone for example.

I have basically quit trying to restore old milsurp rifles due to rising parts cost--still have a few projects in the hopper that are waiting for parts that I can find cheap to restore them. Going part by part to restore in a budget friendly matter on obscure rifles can take years in some cases and still be relatively expensive. Modernizing them would be much more expensive.

Free advice fwiw, If you do have a hankering to sporter something, look for a Mauser 98 action that accepts common short chambered barrels--these can work great with a .308 if you get one made after the 1920's or so. Spanish Mauser m43 (Mauser 98) barrelled receivers can be found fairly reasonable along with scrubbed CZ receivers. Another conversion, that has risen in price due to its intermediate action, is to convert a Yugo 24/47 or a m48 to a .308 which does have some oddities in doing so. Pre WWII German receivers, especially those scrubbed by the Yugo's are a good deal as well.

 

[midland man]

I want to ask as I am looking at a very nice Yugo, m48 8mm and it's not cheap but I do like it so is this strong to handle the modern high pressure loads??

 

[Merle1]

I want to ask as I am looking at a very nice Yugo, m48 8mm and it's not cheap but I do like it so is this strong to handle the modern high pressure loads??

Yes, if it is in good condition. European 8mm is loaded to much higher pressures than typical US ammo.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I want to ask as I am looking at a very nice Yugo, m48 8mm and it's not cheap but I do like it so is this strong to handle the modern high pressure loads??

Yes it is. The action is just a little short then the k98. This was done so that there was less flex in the action.
But if you buy a nice M48 and use it as a base for a shorter rifle, you will be throwing money away. At the rate of the value of surplus guns going up every year, it would be dest to find one in rough shape, or just buy a Remington or Savage.

 

[midland man]

Yes it is. The action is just a little short then the k98. This was done so that there was less flex in the action.
But if you buy a nice M48 and use it as a base for a shorter rifle, you will be throwing money away. At the rate of the value of surplus guns going up every year, it would be dest to find one in rough shape, or just buy a Remington or Savage.

well I own a mosin nagant dated 1942 91/30 and I like it so now wanted to add for shooting fun and yes I do reload my own ammo and collecting this nice looking rifle. they have it priced at $499 at a gun shop in which like I said it is very nice condition! so it has caught my eye and well now I want it!

 

[GunnyUSMC]

well I own a mosin nagant dated 1942 91/30 and I like it so now wanted to add for shooting fun and yes I do reload my own ammo and collecting this nice looking rifle. they have it priced at $499 at a gun shop in which like I said it is very nice condition! so it has caught my eye and well now I want it!

$499 is on the high side. Most often you can find them from $299 to $400 depending on condition.
I bought my last M48 last year for $200.

 

[boom boom]

I want to ask as I am looking at a very nice Yugo, m48 8mm and it's not cheap but I do like it so is this strong to handle the modern high pressure loads??

There are barrelled receivers, sometimes actions, or even just bare receivers regularly on sale via gun broker. You might also find a lightly sportered version already that just needs a better stock or D&T. All milsurps in original condition are heading upwards in price as the big wholesalers run dry due to collecting interest and vintage military matches.

On gunbroker, I found a couple of barrelled actions that might work for you for about $150--one is a spanish m43 and the other a commercial receiver. Couple of Turk small shank, large ring complete actions (m98 in most other respects) around $200 buy it now, and a barrelled Yugo m24/47 stamped Preduzce 44 so it could be a m98 scrubbed action action for $250.00. That was in a couple of minutes searching. There were also several large ring m98 based sporters starting about the same on bids. I'm sure that you could find something similar on Gunsinternational or Armslist.

Try taking a look around at gunbroker, even if you don't buy, it would give you an idea of what is around. You might also look for a JC Higgins Model 50 which is built on an FN m98 variant receiver as a basis. Look around at pawnshops as you can often find ugly sporters that you can dicker around with the pawnbroker to get cheap.

 

[Slamfire]

Yes, if it is in good condition. European 8mm is loaded to much higher pressures than typical US ammo.

They do things differently in Europe. Each and every fire arm must be proof tested before any sale, and that includes sales between individuals. If the firearm fails proof, you can't sell it. Used to be, German proof laws allowed the proof house to destroy the offending firearm, after 1968, they destroy the offending part.

These mandatory proof tests have weeded out the old, weak, firearms, which was the purpose of this law in the first place. So, what firearms are in Europe, they either pass proof with modern, high pressure cartridges, or they get junked. European manufactured and sold ammunition tends to be higher pressure because the firearms in the hands of the shooting population gets inspected and tested on each change of ownership.

American firearms might be proof tested at the factory, but there is no National requirement, and since then, even if the firearm dated back to the 1870's, it has not been inspected or proof tested again. So, American ammunition has to be lightly loaded because of the risk if someone stuffs a full power 8mm cartridge in one of these antiques.

You are free to use the highest pressure ammunition you want in your old thunderstick, but don't be surprised if the thing comes apart in front of your face.