Compact 1911's... 3" vs 3.5"

[DHart]

Quote:going any smaller is a very poor choice compared to a bobtailed Commander

Not really, it's just another option.

kcshooter.... here's the reasoning.

• 4.25" barrel has better velocity/better terminal ballistics than 3" barrel. (The 4.25" barrel is a more effective defense gun with standard 230 gr. JHP defense ammo). The 3" 1911 chambered in .45 acp needs exotic defense ammo like CorBon DXP to attain comparable penetration and expansion. Reliability testing and regular practice with that ammo is incredibly expensive.

• 4.25" barrel has longer sight radius, enabling better accuracy at greater distances than the 3" barrel

• 4.25" barrel has generally better reliability record than 3" barrel (because of the finnicky nature of 3" 1911's, serious gun-toting professionals are quite unlikely to choose a 3" 1911 for serious social work. They can be reliable, but overall, 3" 1911's are widely considered to be less reliable than larger models)

• 4.25" recoil spring has much longer useful life than 3" barrel recoil spring

• Commander with bobtailed grip enables full size magazines; 3" gun loses magazine capacity without gaining significant concealability

Having both, I can carry and conceal a bobtailed Commander as easily and comfortably as a 3" Defender, so the bobtailed Commander wins easily in my view.

Overall, I believe a 3" 1911 sacrifices a LOT compared to a bobtailed Commander.... so much sacrifice that I would choose the bobtailed Commander over a 3" 1911 in a heartbeat.

If you feel differently, that's ok, but I have several of both and the 3" model doesn't play out for me when I do a careful comparison with a bobtailed Commander. If a 3" 1911 was all I had, I'd use it. But I would never choose it if other options were available.

 

[kcshooter]

I understand your reasoning, and did say something along the same lines earlier in the post, however, it doesn't make a 3" a "poor" choice for everyone.

 

[wditto]

the 3" is a poor choice if Antelope hunting.....unless caged

 

[DHart]

kc... I guess we could quibble over the choice of the word "poor". TO me, adding more potential for reliability problems, reducing velocity of an already slow projectile, losing a round of capacity, very short recoil spring life (a contributor to the reliability problem) is "poor" compared to not suffering these drawbacks when you don't need to.

SIDE NOTE on velocity... the .45 acp round was designed for a 230 gr. bullet. The most common and generally best defense ammo in this caliber is 230 gr. JHP -HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber. THis ammo is designed to perform at it's best at around 870-880 fps, which you will get with a 5" barrel. With a 4.25" barrel the velocity may drop to around 820 fps or so. Some loss of expansion may begin to occur at this velocity. With a 3" barrel it may drop to as low as 720, possibly lower. At this velocity these premium defense bullets will not perform as designed. Expect to give up expansion. This is why for the best terminal effectiveness with a 3" 1911, one must go to an exotic like CorBon DPX which will penetrate and expand well from a 3" barrel. But this stuff is incredibly expensive to function test & even occasionally practice with.

The full size 1911 already has a relatively low capacity to begin with (in my view) and no doubt, the 1911 can be finnicky as well.

I just hate to lose more capacity, increase chances of the gun not functioning properly, and launch bullets which may not perform nearly as well as they should or be forced to go with DXP ammo.... all for what? A little smaller gun? I would argue that the decrease in size offered by the 3"ers offer little to no significant benefit (vs. the bobtailed Commander) to the vast majority of people considering the other compromises associated with the little 3" 1911's... that's what I think makes the 3"er a "poor" choice. But don't get me wrong, I would prefer to have one than no gun at all!

 

[kcshooter]

I really didn't want to quibble but you keep pushing this.

TO me, adding more potential for reliability problems

over 7500rds thru a 3" Kimber, never had an issue.

reducing velocity of an already slow projectile

as stated, specialized ammo can be used, or you can do what I do and carry HST/HydraShoks and not really worry about it

losing a round of capacity,

7rds vs 8rds isn't a big deal in my book, but I don't feel undergunned with a j-frame.

very short recoil spring life (a contributor to the reliability problem)

My Kimber has an outer recoil spring with a 1500rd replacement interval and an inner with a 5k interval. Not that much shorter than the 2k interval of my Gov'ts.

is "poor" compared to not suffering these drawbacks when you don't need to.

Often a bobtail can be hard to conceal with a trim waist. My 33" waist can't hide even a bobtail as well as a compact, depending on prefered method of carry. When I carry a commnader, I have to carry it at about 5o'clock IWB to conceal the grip. I can carry a 3" stongside OWB. I don't feel that a 3" is a poor choice. I feel it is just another option for those who want another option. While you may consider it a poor choice for you, that doesn't make it universally bad for everyone. Calling it a poor choice is telling those who have examined their options and gone with the smaller gun that their choice wasn't a good one. I disagree. That said, I do carry a commander more often than the compact but I'm never leery of the compact's ability.

Your choice isn't always the right choice for everyone.

 

[corpsmanup!]

I have a 3.5 officer's and it is one of the most accurate guns I have ever shot out to 25 yards (length of indoor range). most sd shooting situations take place under ten feet. it is VERY concealable- i wear it at the 3 oclock position, and i still pack 8 rounds into it with a 7 round chip mc. mag. It is one damned fine weapon.
PS. - not ONE reliability issue with my 1911 in the hundreds of rounds put through it.

 

[DHart]

kcshooter.... no problem, you and I are pretty much on the same page except that you don't like my choice of the word "poor" when comparing a 3" to a bobtailed Commander. We are in relative agreement on the other comparisons.

As for concealment, I'm tall and lean (6'1", 175 lbs.) and with any shirt (even a somewhat loose t-shirt) worn untucked I can very easily conceal a bobtail carried at 4 o'clock IWB. The only time I could benefit from a 3" barrel would be when carrying OWB with a shortish-shirt... something I never do as I don't like OWB carry. For the person who needs OWB carry for whatever reason, the shorter barrel can help there, if they don't mind the other compromises that must be made with the compact models.

Many have had good luck with reliability in their 3" 1911's (especially with Colt Defenders), but of the 1911 choices out there, 3" 1911's have had the most reliability problems by far, they do suffer capacity loss (why give up a round when you don't have to? Capacity -even 1 round more- can easily be VERY important in a defense scenario!), they do suffer considerable velocity loss, and should therefore be used with very expensive DPX-type ammo for best effectiveness.

These are important factors that anyone considering a 3" 1911 vs. a Commander should very careful consider before making their choice! I feel somewhat well defended with a 3" compact, but it is clearly a "lesser" choice when considering critical factors for defense carry as compared to a bobtailed Commander. If you feel differently, that's fine... we're each just stating individual opinions. But for the person who hasn't made the choice yet and is considering a 3" 1911, these are critically important factors to be aware of and to weigh carefully.

 

[Ala Dan]

My old bud M2Carbine will be along shortly to tell his story of how
he loves his Kimber Ultra's~!

 

[Old Dog]

Although I really like my two Springfield Armory Loaded Lightweight Micro-Compacts (3-inchers which have proven 100% reliable and capable of excellent accuracy) ... I tend to carry them only when concerned about deep cover concealment, in a tuckable IWB holster.

I much prefer a Commander-sized 1911 for carry as I simply find them far easier to shoot (and, frankly, shoot that size far better than the shorty-.45s, i.e. New Agent/Ultra/Micro-Compact).

If your personal 3 or 3.5 inch-barreled 1911 has proven reliable, and you've mastered the technique for shooting it/them effectively, carrying one is not a poor choice, it's your choice. 7 rounds of .45 in a package that's slimmer than a 5-shot J-frame .38? I don't see any problem here.

 

[stevemis]

I've got a $945 Para Warthog collecting dust. It's a 3" 1911 and it's a complete piece. Jennings makes better pistols. It started digesting itself after my first couple of magazines. It's been back to Para twice in the first month or so I owned it.. still lots of damage from their initial screwup at the factory and it's still unreliable... so it sits, collecting dust, and I get heartburn every time I think about it.

You can have heartburn too, for free. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362606

I picked up a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail ("CBOB") to replace the Para. There is a world of difference between these two guns. The Commander is longer, but it conceals just as easily for me. The CBOB was less expensive than the Para, and it's not falling apart yet. No failures, no trips back to the factory... just a really tight, accurate, reliable pistol.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Does anyone make a 1911 with a 4"/4.25" barrel and a little frame? I would love to get a good CC 1911, but I am leery of .45 ACP at less than 4" barrel velocities, though I would want the shorter grips of the officer sized guns. How short is that grip anyway? Compared to a CZ compact/PCR/P01, or a Glock 27, since i have those and can relate. I love the commander size guns but I sort of wish they had a slightly shorter grip to go with that shortened barrel. I have no experience with 1911s, I am just going off the photos I have seen (none of my friends have their own guns).


Based on my experience with other guns, I would second their comments that grip length is far more difficult to conceal than barrel length. barrel length 4" and below is all pretty much gravy.

You're looking for what Colt has called a "CCO" -- it's a 4-1/4" Commander slide and barrel on a shorter Officers ACP frame. It's a very, VERY nice combination. Unfortunately, Colt has discontinued that configuration, but some other manufacturers offer the same thing.

does the commander not have shorter grips?

No, it does not.