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Compact Rifle Requirements

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Bartholomew Roberts, Aug 7, 2007.

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  1. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    OK, what rifles meet the following criteria:

    Overall Length (with stock folded or collapsed): less than 23", ideally 20"
    Semi-automatic, detachable magazine
    Effective on 20"x20" targets out to 300m, ideally 500m
    Good penetration of intermediate barriers using ball ammo (glass, sheet steel)

    Do any rifles meet those criteria?
     
  2. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

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    I know that most subcarbines like the aksu or hk53 use a 8-10" barrel and with stock extended, generally are around 30" long. With stocks folded, assuming there's an average ten inch decrease in length, they maybe around 20-23" in length.

    It seems like they all fit the criteria, however, 300m-500m effective ranges maybe unrealistic. I'm sure you'd be able to hit targets out that far but terminal ballistics will suffer in comparison to 16"+ barrels. It all depends on the load you're using.

    Barrier penetration, I don't know. Someone might want to tell me about that.
     
  3. PracticeFreedom

    PracticeFreedom Member

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  4. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    A Yugo M92 SBR?
     
  5. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

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    A yugo m92's 7.62mm trajectory might be a problem from a 10" barrel shooting beyond 200meters. We already know that the 7.62x39 has serious drop at 300meters from a 16" barrel in comparison to a 223. A 10" ain't helping. The round will be deadly, but what's the use if you can't hit the target?
     
  6. zinj

    zinj Member

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    Kel-Tec SU-16C?

    It isn't really a military rifle though.
     
  7. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    that's a tough one, bart

    closest i can get is a PS90. overall length (after SBRing) is 20", but max effective range is listed as 200m. some rounds are pretty well known for penetration
     
  8. Redneck with a 40

    Redneck with a 40 Member

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    I think 300 meters is an unrealistic expectation from a carbine sized rifle. Out to 100 yards, I think the "30 Carbine" is a dandy, they are very compact and light, packs plenty of punch out to 100 yards, and they use 15 rd magazines.:D
     
  9. goon

    goon Member

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    With a folding stock AK you get to about 26" folded. IIRC, a 16" M-4 broken down is about the same. One other thing I have seen is some manufacturers are building AR pistols with long buffer tubes that are coated in foam. Although it is not technically a stock, it doesn't take much imagination to see that you could brace it against your shoulder and get a cheek weld on it. Broken down or possibly not you should definitely be able to at least meet your size requirements.
    As for the accuracy needs...
    ?
    But I do know a guy who can consistently do amazing things with a 1911. He has hit cans of shaving cream at 150 yards.
    I don't think it is impossible.
     
  10. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    Federal law requires any rifle to have a barrel length of not less than 16 inches and an overall length of 26 inches. Otherwise it is restricted under the NFA - class 3.
     
  11. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The NFA requirement is with the stock in the extended position IIRC. In any case, NFA weapons are legal here, so that isn't a problem.

    One rifle I had in mind was the DSA Compact FAL with 11" barrel. According to an article by David Fortier, the 147gr 7.62x51 Radway Green leaves at about 2497fps from the 11" barrel. Compare that to 2300fps from a 16" AK for 123gr 7.62x39. The OAL of the rifle is 22" folded.

    As for as 300m being unrealistic, I disagree. The 10.5" AR will deliver hits at 300m with no problem. I am less concerned about whether the terminal performance is ideal at that range; but I do want to be able to make good hits on the upper half of an IDPA target at that range.

    The PS90 also meets a lot of the criteria if you use the SS190; but I am a bit skeptical of the ability of a small, high-velocity round to get good penetration, especially if you cannot use SS190.
     
  12. Deer Hunter

    Deer Hunter Member

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    The only thing I can think of is a pistol-rifle of some sort. Like AR-15 pistols, AK pistols, or Keltec's pistol .223 carbine.
     
  13. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

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    11" seems awfully short for a 308! What you plan on using it for anyway? Is it for CQB, security, VIP, etc.?

    You mentioned an IDPA target, is it for competition?
     
  14. Zeke Menuar

    Zeke Menuar Member

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    AR15 6.5 Grendel?

    Big bag of cash not included.

    ZM
     
  15. Heavy Metal Hero

    Heavy Metal Hero Member

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    I would almost assume this has to be a bullpup rifle of some sort. What about the new Kel-Tec .308 rifle?
     
  16. modifiedbrowning

    modifiedbrowning Member

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    If you can bump your max overall length to 30" a Bushmaster M17S would fit the bill.
     
  17. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Folding stock AK in 7.62x39mm, 16" barrel, 20-round mag, with Kobra or red dot comes pretty close. A 1x optic makes a decent AK a 300-yard carbine, IMHO, but 500 yards is way out of its league.

    The same gun in .223 might have acceptable accuracy out a bit further, but I'm not sure about 500.
     
  18. SaMx

    SaMx Member

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    people are mentioning AKs. Maybe you could try a saiga in 308 from Tromix?
    [​IMG]
     
  19. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Member

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    HK53 or HK51?

    Something like this with a collapsible stock...
    HK-51withAGOC.gif
     
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The concept is a rifle that can be worn across the chest via a two-point sling by the driver of a vehicle. The rifle needs to be short enough that the driver can bring it into action quickly or dismount quickly. Since the concept is for use around vehicles; sufficient barrier penetration to deal with other vehicles also makes sense.

    30 inches is definitely too long for that requirement and I believe 23 is probably the maximum length where that is practical for a driver. Not sure what the OAL of a folding stock AK is; but I think a non-NFA barrel would be a no go. A shorter barrel might work but I would like to keep velocity above 2200fps.

    It looks like the various short .308 options are the way to go. I like the looks of the Tromix Saiga. What barrel length is that?
     
  21. GTSteve03

    GTSteve03 Member

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    Maybe a shorty (11.5) AR in 6.8 SPC? Should have better barrier penetration than 5.56 and the platform is already known among most operator types.

    Zak Smith would know a lot about these.
     
  22. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Member

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    A krinkov wouldn't be a bad idea...
     
  23. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    I had an AR-15 pistol for a while. It was fun but very loud. Keep noise levels in consideration with your choices.


    If it werent for the range you want i'd suggest one of the tromix SBS shotguns.

    Nice and compact. But enough punch.
     
  24. praharin

    praharin Member

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    i drove a hmmwv in iraq, and can say that it wouldnt work for me in one of those. there is barely enough room behind the wheel with me and my armor with the seat as far back as it will go. tried wearing a low profile chest rig one time, bad idea if youre driving. personally i think youre trying too hard to solve this problem. if your driver has a pistol on him somewhere and a rifle with him he should be alright. just gotta get him to remember to take the rifle with him when he bails
     
  25. SaMx

    SaMx Member

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    the short saiga has an 8 inch barrel I think.
     
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