Competition loads

[Red Cent]

IDPA and others use a power factor. IDPA recently lowered the SSR power factor. Cowboy simply says have fun. IPSC has a power factor.
If you would compete in a brand new game with pistol or revolver, would you shoot the minimum power factor? Would you participate to learn your handgun and use manstopper loads and ignore the "gamers"? Or would you simply decline because the competitive reguirements are not "real life"?

 

[Mt Shooter]

I shoot USPSA and I go wfith the minimum power factor + 10 fps for a cushion.

 

[Sam Cade]

The limited amount of competition I shoot is to keep myself acclimated to shooting under stress, therefore I use ammunition loaded to mirror "real world" performance.

 

[Japle]

Shooting Steel Challenge with my S&W 327PC, I load a 125 gr bullet at 785 fps in .38 Short Colt brass.

No point going any hotter.

Recoil isn't an issue when you're transitioning from one target to another if it's a long transition, but when the targets are close together or when you see dirt fly on the berm and need to take another whack at the target, it’s very nice when the gun hasn’t moved significantly.

When I shot IDPA, I used a load that was similar to my street load. It cost me time, but I was more interested in reality (as much as you can get in IDPA) than gaming.

 

[Sam1911]

I see the thrust of your question, but I will point out that IDPA changed the power floor for SSR only because people couldn't FIND factory .38 Spc. ammo that was as hot as IDPA required. (Without going to +P ammo or a few foreign-made brands loaded hotter than the common US stuff.) That kind of turns your question upside down.

Personally, I don't see a lot of point in worrying about it. Some of the guns I shoot, I really don't care to (or can't) load light enough to skim the very bottom of PF. Some, (the 9mms) I only shoot for "gaming" anyway, so I load the required middle-of-the-road ammo.

If you care to win against fierce competition, it pays to set your gear up to be the most advantageous it can be. If you care to get experience and try your hand against new challenges others have thoughtfully put together for you -- shoot whatever you want.

No drama either way.

 

[Red Cent]

The thrust of the post was to discover if the need to compete overwhelmed the desire to sharpen your defensive skills with heavy recoiling loads.
I don't want to turn this post into the fallacy that competition is the fix-all for self defense.
I would think that a match fee would be the cheapest way to go in gaining some insight in self defense. I can relate to getting the nerve up to compete.

But if you made up your mind to "participate" in a match, would you load hot?

This question has bugged me for some time. The cowboy post brought the question up again. Since IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, PCCA does not have a ceiling and they do not deny participation to those who "just wanna have fun", why don't we see anyone of these at matches?

No sarcasm. Serious question. I am in the top ten of "gamers". I shot a PCCA match Saturday with a SS M60-10 with 105gr lead over 3.2 American Select. 795fps in a 4 5/8" barrel.

 

[Smokin Gator]

"I shoot USPSA and I go with the minimum power factor + 10 fps for a cushion. "

That's not much of a cushion against getting DQ'd at a match that chronos.
I make sure my match ammo is enough above the minimum allowed power factor that it should make it unless there is something bad really going on. The minimum allowed is not usually really light loads, but certainly not the same as maximum self defense loads.

That's part of what's great about the competitions. If you want to shoot ammo comparable to what you have in your daily carry gun you can. Use an inside the waistband holster if you want. Or you can choose to do everything legal to be as competitive as you can be.

 

[Hk Dan]

I load to SAAMI max one verything. I don't do this to play Walter Mitty, I'm getting in practice for blood.

 

[Chris Rhines]

For USPSA, I load to the minimum power factor, plus 5. So 130PF for Production (9mm 124grn. @ 1050fps) and 170PF for Limited (.40 180grn. @ 950fps.)

For IDPA, I use my 9mm Production load. Same for Steel Challenge, which actually has a power ceiling of 145PF.

For 3gun, my rifle loads are right at the top end of SAMMI. I can't tell any difference in recoil and sight tracking between light and heavy .223, so I load solely for accuracy. For the shotgun, I shoot factory ammo.

I'm an unrepentant gamer, and it shows.

-C

 

[1SOW]

NO game is practice for real life SD. Shooting basics can be practiced in a game. Gun familiarization can be gained in a game.

For USPSA "production" class (DA/SA or striker or revolver with a very limited list of changes allowable to the factory gun)) are shot from "hammer fully down", 10 rds max in the mag, and a "minor" load -- 9mm at a 125 PF MINIMUM. I shoot 9mm CZ DA/SA, so I enjoy shooting Production class using a 130pf load. (124 gr @ 1050 fps))

The same CZ pistol can be loaded "hotter" (165 PF) and compete in a "Major" load class like Limited 10/Limited or even Open class; but "these" pistols are shot S/A from cocked and locked and allowed to have significant changes made to make them more competitive. (124 gr @ 1331fps=165 PF, and if you allow a little margin for error a 1370'/sec load=170 PF ---(VERY Hot).

A stock 40/45 cal can shoot L-10, L, Single stack,, Open (major PF) with close to factory SD ammo.

All this means, you can load your gun the way you want to practice and compete in one of the available classes. The drawback is that beyond L-10 the pistols you compete against can be high-dollar tricked up guns with mags holding 22 rds and more..

You make your choice, it's all fun either way you go.

My SD gun ammo is loaded hotter, but not that much. I practice with both.
I started in USPSA Production class with a stock 9mm Sig P239, 8 rd mags, DA/SA and later added 10rd mags. It was fun too.

 

[Sam1911]

why don't we see anyone of these at matches?

Why don't we see any one of what? (Not sure I understood.)

I see loads of folks shooting factory ammo (some, factory hollowpoints, though IDK how they afford it), and know plenty who load something close to their carry ammo, or just some average velocity, middle-of-the-road charge.

I do know a few who deliberately work down to the power floor.

Like I said, I can't load some of the guns I shoot down that low, and others I duplicated factory loads. And, the 9mms are just for games -- but I'm still using 125 gr. loads at about 1,075 fps, which is pretty average.

I pretty much find something that works, that won't get me disqualified, and then spend my time shooting rather than worrying about the load.

 

[MrBorland]

Since IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, PCCA does not have a ceiling and they do not deny participation to those who "just wanna have fun", why don't we see anyone of these at matches?

Because we all know it's a competition, and we're competitive by nature: When the rubber hits the road on match day, few, no matter their words, aren't willing to jump into the fray.

Also, IDPA, PCCA, etc set equipment & PF guidelines that can be still be assumed relevant to their missions. Ergo, stay within the rules, and you can be competitive while improving relevant gun handling & shooting skills.

I pretty much find something that works, that won't get me disqualified, and then spend my time shooting rather than worrying about the load.

This. My current SSR load exceeds the old SSR power floor by a comfy margin. The SSR power floor's dropped, but I haven't seen the need to change my load because it already works great.

I shot a PCCA match Saturday with a SS M60-10 with 105gr lead over 3.2 American Select. 795fps in a 4 5/8" barrel

I shot this match, too. I found loads based on my SSR load don't work well in my j-frame snubbie, so I ended up shooting a "gamer" load simply because it works well in my gun. As such, I was able to focus on making my hits, instead of how poorly my match was going.

 

[ny32182]

For IDPA I load 147s to somewhere in the upper 800's. Getting DQ'd from a major over 10 or 20fps, in which you have at least $300 invested between the match fee, travel, and other expenses would not be my idea of a good time. Plus I can't really feel a difference between 860fps and 880fps, at least with my current components. (I believe the minimum is 851)

I've done it both ways. For years I shot IDPA at the club level about once a month with real carry gear and factory ammo. I went essentially to the top of SS with this setup. Then after a while it dawned on me that I could work to be competetive if I wanted to be, I shoot matches all the time, and I never get assaulted, so it made more sense to just focus on the matches. I doubt I'm any less competent with my carry gear as a result. Probably the opposite.

 

[Red Cent]

Were you on the same posse with the gimpy old guy and a golf cart?

"I shot this match, too. I found loads based on my SSR load don't work well in my j-frame snubbie, so I ended up shooting a "gamer" load simply because it works well in my gun. As such, I was able to focus on making my hits, instead of how poorly my match was going."

I agree. However, if the BG would have been wearing a wool jacket, I would have made him really mad. BTW, that was my cowboy load.

I discovered, while shooting both PCCA matches, that the double action revolver is requiring me to correctly stroke the trigger and see my front sight. With hot loads I would have been distracted, as you were, and would not have learned to shoot better. I believe that shooting "gamer" loads will form the subconscious and prepare you to function properly and you will not notice the recoil of the hollow ponts.

 

[Red Cent]

Thanks for the responses. I suppose I was trying to get into the minds of others. As competitive shooters you have pointed out the gist of my question and that is you can compete with the required PFs and gain real experience in gun handling and figuring out situations under some stress.

 

[MrBorland]

Were you on the same posse with the gimpy old guy and a golf cart?

Yep - Looks like we were squad mates. We even chatted about our loads, IIRC. Yellow ball cap & red sunglasses. Very chic.

I discovered, while shooting both PCCA matches, that the double action revolver is requiring me to correctly stroke the trigger and see my front sight.

The challenge of the DA trigger is one reason why I love revolvers.

I believe that shooting "gamer" loads will form the subconscious and prepare you to function properly and you will not notice the recoil of the hollow ponts.

Agreed. It might be a game, and no one's shooting back, but PCCA implicitly stresses 2 guiding SD principles: 1) shot placement is paramount and 2) you're responsible for every shot taken. As such, PCCA time penalties for shots outside the "down zero", are twice that of IDPA, while clear misses and hits on non-threats are very expensive. Pocket guns alone present a challenge, so using ammo that further hinders me from making good hits doesn't sound like a good idea in competition or in a real-life SD situation.

 

[Red Cent]

Tell me about it. I shot the hard cover twice. Last target left around the wall. Reacted too fast and trigger was a true knee jerk. Ate my lunch.

 

[Justin]

Since IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, PCCA does not have a ceiling and they do not deny participation to those who "just wanna have fun", why don't we see anyone of these at matches?

I wonder if this has to do with the perceived differences in real-world vs. competitive applications for the calibers in each game?

For instance, I doubt there's much of a difference in power factor between a .40 SW load used in USPSA vs. the load you would find used in defensive ammunition.

When it comes to the old west guns, though, there's a perception that they're built stronger and can run much hotter ammunition. A single-action revolver in .45 Colt can run ammunition that is tremendously powerful for a handgun, but it's unlikely anyone in their right mind would want to run a course of fire shooting that ammunition.

FWIW, I've seen similar complaints regarding the use of managed-recoil slugs and birdshot in 3Gun competitions.

 

[waktasz]

1SOW, you can't score major with a 9mm in any division except open.

Limited/L10/Single stack is .40 caliber minimum for major.

 

[Red Cent]

"I wonder if this has to do with the perceived differences in real-world vs. competitive applications for the calibers in each game?"

I have noticed that if one says that the loads are not real world and he/she is not interested, apparently they do not compete in any action gun sport(the aforementioned). I really wanted someone to articulate their position. Please give me the benefit of the doubt in these statements. They are not meant to insult or imply anything. I really do not get it.

I own the 44 mag, 45 Colt, 357 mag, 9mm, 38 Spl., and on occasion I will get familiar with some upper range handloads.

I am building up nerve to shoot IDPA. Because of a physical problem, I will have to incur a three second penalty each time I shoot around the left side of a barricade. Can't balance on the left foot. I will load the G34 with, apparently, the perennial 9mm load. 147gr with 3.1 of Clays. Declared to be a popgun.
I also will shoot CDP. Don't know a good load yet. Heavy bullet, slow powder, strong mainspring, a bit light on the recoil/action spring.
Gamer, Gamer.

 

[Sam1911]

I also will shoot CDP. Don't know a good load yet. Heavy bullet, slow powder, strong mainspring, a bit light on the recoil/action spring.

Nope. 200 gr. LSWEC, 4.0 gr. Clays or other similar light/fast charge for 825-850 fps. I like 5.? gr. of American Select, but everyone uses the old H&G 68 style 200 gr. lswc.

 

[Red Cent]

Interesting. I am shooting a 200 RNFP with American Select. I use AS for Everything cowboy. Lever gun, shotgun, revolver. It runs just under PF so I need a couple more flakes. Runs very smooth and the barrel barely rises above the A zone. You're sure the 230 gr won't do better with, say, W231? BTW, I installed a EGW firing pin stop per instructions from Tuner and it really helps recoil impulse. Need to tell him that.

 

[Sam1911]

Do better? For what? The lightest feeling load? I don't know if you can tell a difference. Worth getting a box of 500 and trying it out, I guess. But the heavier bullets will hit a higher point of impact.

At some point striving for the lowest possible recoil becomes "angels dancing on the heads of pins."

 

[Justin]

I have noticed that if one says that the loads are not real world and he/she is not interested, apparently they do not compete in any action gun sport(the aforementioned).

I've heard any number of people claiming that they won't participate at matches because competition "isn't real world."

Frankly, though, I don't think the people who make that particular excuse would show up even if a shooting match completely conformed to their imaginary ideal of what "real world" means.

 

[Jim Watson]

Red Cent,

You don't have to balance on your left foot to shoot left barricade. As long as your feet are JUST behind cover relative to the target, you only lean a bit to break the shots. You might have to shuffle a bit to align on each target with the minimum of lean. I remain a bit lame on the right from events of a year ago but it does not hamper me. Kneeling has always been tougher.