Conflicting load data for 38 Special

[Oleg Volk]

Looking at several sources for 38Spl with 125gr JHP using Accurate Arms #5 powder:

Lee loading manual: starting 6.3 grains, never exceed 6.8
Speer manual: 7.8 grains, do not reduce
Accurate Arms: never exceed 6.8

From that, it seems that Speer Manual is the odd one out. Comments, advice?

PS: Looks like I'll get dies for 30 carbine, 223 and 38/357 from Watkins Pawn shop (what they have in at this time) and eventially add 45acp, 303 Brit and 32/20 to that). For now, I got a thousand primers, a pound of Accurate #5 and 200 125-grain bullerts for .38Spl/357. Once comfortable with the reloading process, I'll try other chamberings, hence the small number of bullets purchased.

 

[coonan357]

OLeg may I be one of the first to welcome you down here.. A book I can recommend for reloading the .38 special is the ken water pet loads book it has alot of usefull info I recommend you get it . 7.0 is what is recommended as the lowest in this book and he says 7.3 is eccessive, I don't personally like # 5 in .38 I use mostly #2 . IMo the speer book is really good as it was my first but if you have any questions about it cntact Johan at acurate he is more than willing to answer a question .

 

[moxie]

My older Speer manual, #11, shows a range of 6.7-7.0 for the 125JHP, and lists all as +P loads. MV is 904-931. If your Speer manual is newer than #11, and shows a load of 7.8 with a warning not to reduce, I'd heed the warning. They may have developed some data on problems with the #11 recommendations.

 

[shu]

All the 38spl loads for jacketed bullets in Speer #13 indicate Do Not Reduce. Reading the lower right of Pg 517 it seems Speer prefers lead bullets for 38spl. Higher pressures are needed to drive copper jacketed bullets down the barrel, and the 38spl is a low pressure round. Speer indicates there is not much margin between overpressuring in a tight gun and leaving the bullet in the bore in a loose gun (loose chamber and cylinder clearance).

 

[Oleg Volk]

I'll be using the 38 ammo in SW581 (357 L-frame).

 

[trapshooter]

Oleg,

One of the things that can cause variance is the brand of bullet.

Speer only tests thier bullets. Others may test several brands, and will list each separately, if it makes a difference in pressure.

This, needless to say, can be confusing.

Since you are using an L-frame rated for .357 pressures, you should be ok starting at the lightest load in the manual for any specific bullet in question, and working up from there. Or, another 'rule of thumb' is to reduce the maximum listed load by 10-15%, and work up. Since some manuals list .38 loads with a 'do not reduce' warning, I would say that warning applies to the specific primer/powder/case/bullet combo listed. You might try comparing light .357 loads for the same 125JHP from the same manual, looking for a light .357 load that is closest to the velocity you are looking for.

Unfortunately, it's not a good thing to try .38 charges in .357 cases, as the light powder load can cause weird things to happen, and is not safe, any more than .357 charges in a .38 cases, which may over-pressure the .38 case, even with 'light' .357 loads.

Ain't reloading fun?

 

[444]

I have found that calling bullet and powder manufacturers is a great experience. One of my friends kept telling me this, but I didn't want to waste their time. I finally gave in and they were as nice as could be. They REALLY know what they are talking about. I asked them all kinds of questions and the guy obviously knew exactly what I was talking about and gave me good solid advice. I have also found that most of the time, they can even steer me into the most accurate load. And from their answers, I don't think they were just pulling this out of the air. They say, we tested this data using this bullet, and this powder, in this gun or many guns............. The guys I have talked to also knew all this information right off the cuff. There was no long wait while they looked anything up, or asked other people, they KNEW the answers right off the bat and everytime, my results proved them right.

Short of calling them, I would use the data in the Accurate manual. They manufactured the powder and I am sure they have more experience with it testing it.

 

[trapshooter]

I'll second what 444 says about contacting manufacturers. Although my experience with this route is limited to Sierra and Vihta, the response from both was timely, informative, and specific in response to my questions.

BTW, Oleg,

my Speer #12 shows exactly what yours does for the 125gr bullets with AA#5. 7.8gr, Do Not Reduce.

Sierra 50th shows:

AA#5

6.4 gr - 900fps (starting load)
7.0 gr - 950 fps
7.6 gr - 1000 fps
8.2 gr - 1050 fps (Maximum load)

This is with:
Starline brass trimmed to 1.150"
Cartridge overall length - 1.450"
CCI 500 primer
Sierra .357 125gr JSP or JHC bullets
Fired from a 6" S&W K-38 with a 1x18.75 twist.

Hope this helps some more.

Gren

(edited to add):

These manuals give results from actual testing by the companies in question. They are very specific regarding components, guns, and barrel characteristics, and are only valid for the test gun, respecting achieved velocities. The testing protocols are usually discussed in most manuals, and are very informative when you are using a different gun, barrel, etc. Switching components (like primers, brass, or bullets), is inadvisable, but can be done if you use reduced powder charges and work up to maximum pressure signs. I don't recommend this, as you can stick your neck out pretty far without realizing it. Better to stick to the recipe rather than move into uncharted territory.

I know that Sierra and Speer, (and most other reputable comapnies I'd bet), test for pressures in a test rig, too.

Brass can make a huge difference, as case capacity can vary, sometimes greatly, causing excessive pressure with an apparently safe load. There are reliable methods to check case capacity, discussed in some manuals, and available on the web, too. You can do this at home. (Quick and dirty- you fill empty cases with water and compare volumes of water held by different cases).

This is maybe more detail than you wanted.

 

[griz]

For realitively slow revolver rounds like the 38, I believe the do not reduce warnings are to avoid sticking a jacketed bullet in the barrel. I don't have my Speer book here to check it, but you can tell this by checking the same book for comprable weight lead bullet loads. If they list a much lower charge for a 125 grain lead bullet (like for Cowboy Action Shooting), then that explains the warning for the jacketed version.

While not common with normal loads, you certianly CAN stick a jacketed bullet in the barrel. I was trying to make a no smoke/ low recoil load for my 38 and did just that. If you pay attention when you try a new load you can safely try such tricks, even though it is no fun driving the bullet back out.:banghead: One last thing, with loads light enough for sticking bullets to be a concern, do NOT assume that if it's OK in one revolver it will be OK in another. Barrel length, barrel cylinder gap and other factors will make each case different.

 

[Johnny Guest]

OLEG--Welcome to the wonderful world of brass stuffing.

I think you'll learn a lot in beginning handloading with the .38 SPL, as it is probably the easiest one from which to obtain good results. Sounds as if you are going directly toward the "High Performance" level of loads. There's a lot of FUN to be had in beginning with soft-to-standard level loads, and then progressing onward to the barn burners. Your choice, though.

I have zero experience with the AA powders, so can offer no personal observqtions in that regard. As always, much depends on your intendeded use of the ammunition you're loading.

My own thoughts on .38 SPL is to provide good, solid loads, equalling factory standard ammo--Normally the 158 gr. I have loaded a lot of +P level .38s for medium to heavy revolvers in both .38 and .357.
I really like Unique powder for this use, and, lately, W-231. Gonna try out H. Universal as well, as this powder seems to have been originated as a very near equivalent for Unique.

Don't be spooked by the cries, "Oh, but Unique is such a DIRTY powder!" Yeah, it leaves a good bit of soot, but you clean your guns after every lengthy shooting session, don't you? Back when I was doing a huge amount of practice with .38 loads in a Model 19, learning to point shoot, I'd sometimes fire 200 -- 300 rounds in an afternoon, and never had the revolver tie up from fouling.

Also, Unique, 231, Universal and Bullseye are economical powders, for practice loads. MANY shots per pound of powder--Just heed all cautions about checking cases wwhen using these low volume powders. If you want to obtain MAXIMUM velocity with 125 gr. bullets, of course, that is a somewhat different story. Your seeking second and third sources of load data is exactly what I would have to do, in going to a different construction and weight bullet.

You mention that you are about to obtain dies to load several other cartridges as well. Have you noted the discussions about .303 British, full length vs. neck siziing? Before beginning with that great old ctg, you might want to review threads at TFL concerning such.

I didn't know you didn't hand load, Oleg I think you'll find that it opens whole new vistas in the shooting experience. Great bunch of people here on the H&R forum, too, and always ready to help out.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Oleg Volk]

I want a medium-hot 38spl load. Use of 125gr JHP is to reduce leading and to provide the gun with bullet weight for which the fixed sights are regulated. Most lead bullets are 148-158gr. Will call Accurate Arms.

 

[coonan357]

Oleg when you call see if you can talk to Johan Hes the BIg guy over there , He might be a little hard to get hold of due to he goes to the shot show every year and takes a few off afterwords . tell him who you are (THR ) .. Might help a little better . I had a problem last year and he did some testing on some powder for me and found out it was the primers that caused the problem .

 

[444]

Been there, done that, replaced the barrel

"While not common with normal loads, you certianly CAN stick a jacketed bullet in the barrel. "

"do NOT assume that if it's OK in one revolver it will be OK in another. Barrel length, barrel cylinder gap and other factors will make each case different."

 

[griz]

Just a little more info:

The Accurate manual number 2 lists a max of 7.1 grains as a +P load. To add to the confusion, they also list a load of 7.2 for a Rainer 125 FP, plated I presume. That is NOT a +P load but I don't know why it's charge is higher.

Brian Pearce in Handloader magazine from last June lists 7.8 for standard pressure and 8.1 for a +P load. Both are with a Hornady 125 gr XTP bullet.

I have used up to 7.8 in my loads and I've found #5 to be a well suited to the 38. Most of my 38 shooting is with light lead bullet loads, but when I load jacketed bullets or max loads with 158 grain lead, #5 is my choice.

 

[Master Blaster]

I went through the same questions you have a few years back.

I used to load .38 spl to shootin my 686+.

Then It dawned on me that I could load a slightly higher charge in a .357 mag case, and not have the ring of fouling in the cylinder to scrub out (.38 spl iis shorter hence the fouling ring).

I get excellent accuracy and have fired thousands of these loads in several different revolvers. These are plinker loads.

.357 magnum case

4.5 gr winchester 231 158 lswc OAL per the manual 1.570-1.590

4.0 gr hodgdon titegroup 158 lswc

If you want jacketed these are great from my sp101
I have only loaded 100 of these:

.357 mag case

125 Hornady xtp 7.6 gr Unique, Hotter 8.6 Unique 1.575 Oal.

I really like the 158 LSWC they seem to hit to POA for my fixed sight revolvers.

 

[Poodleshooter]

Well Oleg, now that you've seen the dirty secret of reloading, you can chuckle with the rest of us at the blanket statement "Do not exceed existing load data".
Oleg, I'd use 6.3 for a starting load and work up. Learn how increasing pressures affect the case and primer in your revolver by being observant and reading lots of reloading data manuals.
You can get lead 125's,and if you stick to .38 loads you'll never get 125's to really lead that badly. I save the JHP's for high speed loads above 1100fps. The .38 is one caliber you can really shoot cheaply.

 

[357Man]

#5 in .38 Special

Oleg,
I like 7.2 grains of #5 with the 125s; I got this from the Nosler manual.
I have shot 8.0 grains of AA5; it is over what the manuals say, but if you're using it in a .357, you'll be fine.
BTW, I've shot all of this in a 686.