Confused on "Pocket" for shoulder - shooting

[shadow9]

I've been reading over and over about placing the butt of the rifle into the "pocket" of your shoulder - and holding it tight. I did this back in the day with a 28ga and 20ga shotgun - and it was the most miserable shooting experience I've had.

Since then, I've run up to 10ga shotguns holding ON my shoulder - and avoiding the pocket. It's a hard spot where the clavicle meets the shoulder bones - about the same place most people are trained to put an AR-15.

When I do try to "pull" a rifle into the "pocket" of my shoulder (below the articulation of clavicle and shoulder joint - distal end of the pectoral muscle), any pressure of trying to pull the rifle into the pocket results in discomfort - and any mild-medium (.308-.30-06) recoil is a bit painful - it feels like it's trying to stretch/yank that end of my pectoral muscle. After shooting, it's definitely more sensitive and bruises far easier.

So, what am I doing wrong? If we're supposed to put the butt into that "pocket", why does it hurt more going into the pocket vs. onto the shoulder itself/onto shoulder to the side of the pocket?



PS - Mods - Did not know where to put this. The majority of my shooting is with centerfire rifles - hence placement in this forum.

 

[Curator]

Putting the butt of a strong recoiling rifle on the shoulder joint provides almost no "padding" and usually results in pain. A "pocket" between your shoulder joint and clavicle area only forms when you lift your elbow to near-horizontal. This provides a "recessed" area with some flesh padding and should be the least painful with recoil. It also keeps the butt firmly in place rather than allowing it to slip off the shoulder. Not lifting the elbow may be the reason this is not working for you.

Guns made with crescent butt plates like Kentucky rifles and old Winchester lever actions are a different matter. They are designed to have the butt plate placed where the arm meets the shoulder, not in the "shoulder-pocket."

 

[Sam1911]

Each type of long-gun shooting has something of a different take on where the butt should be. A DCM or High-Power match shooter firing an AR-15 or M-16 in the offhand stage will stand very erect and will have the butt resting nearly on top of the shoulder, with the toe of the but just perched on top of the clavicle.

A practical/tactical shooter will shorten the stock, square himself to the target/threat and pull the butt in about half way between the shoulder pocket and the centerline of the chest, drop the strong-side elbow, roll his weight forward and "get big on the gun."

A wingshooter will point his belt buckle at where he expects to break the clay bird and will stand in a natural, relaxed stance, bringing the gun up to his eye, and raising the strong-side elbow ("chicken wing" style) to form a secure cradle for the butt to nest as he mounts the gun.

A benchrest shooter or long-range prone precision shooter will adopt the position that puts them most naturally behind the scope, generally letting the butt rest against the top of the pectoral muscle.

A big-game and/or field rifle shooter will usually adopt something a bit more like a shotgun wingshooter's stance, as tracking moving targets in a smooth, steady manner is very important, and having the butt cushioned on muscle rather than bone makes handling more significant recoil a whole lot easier on the body. You really don't want that buttstock jamming right into the crease of your shoulder joint! Try raising your elbow and letting the butt slide an inch or two more proximal to your sagittal plane and see if that doesn't help quite a bit.

Also, remember that the more recoil you're trying to handle, the more upright and flexible you should be. Shooting big bores off the bench is painful for almost everyone. Standing and shooting, where your body can roll with the gun's movement is a whole lot less traumatic.

 

[Murphys Law]

Its difficult to "show" someone the pocket with just words, these videos at this link will help you to understand some of the things I'm talking about.

For field shooting with either a rifle or shotgun. You want to be standing with your feet shoulder with apart and your weak foot forward. Keep your head ERECT and bring the gun to your face first and when your eye has found the front sight and target, then pull it straight back into your shoulder. Once the gun has settled, AND while keeping your face down on the top (comb) of the stock, you can cam the gun tighter against your face by raising your elbow. At first this may seem unnatural but by doing it in steps, it quickly becomes fluid and can be done in one motion instead of three.

I hope the videos help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0iI02kRgQ&list=PL25F5E37A8395AF05

 

[BCRider]

I find that I can achieve this "pocket" when I hunch forward in a more or less typical military or SWAT/ERT rifleman's posture as well. This being where the trigger hand elbow is down tight to the ribs but with the shoulders hunched forward.

If the shooter doesn't hunch over or fold in the shoulder there really is no pocket. One has to form or shape the pocket as suggested by my description and the other replies posted above.

For a while I was helping out at the local indoor range on Lady's Nights. So we had LOTS of new first time shooters come in. Many/most of them less than skilled at holding or positioning guns.

For the 12Ga pumps I'd put my hand on the recoil pad and tell them to lean and hunch over and around until they could feel full contact with the whole pad and no pressure from the top or bottom points. This advice seemed to be the most efficient at making them all assume a proper posture with the least additional directions.

It was a real giggle when two of the smaller 90lb'ish oriental girls came back a couple of weeks later after this and didn't want the .22 handgun again. Just a 12Ga and two boxes of target loads....

 

[Panzerschwein]

I know what you mean about the pocket, I've been confused on where to find it.

I do know that it's not recommended to put the butt right on the pectoral muscle. I've heard that this can send the recoil "shockwave" into your chest and cause a heart attack. Not sure if this is true?? Seems plausible with something like a 10 gauge though. People have been killed with baseballs hitting this area.

 

[Skylerbone]

You can find that pocket by placing your hand across your chest as if reciting the Pledge (though only lefties will have their hand across their heart). Bend your other arm as if to mimic a chicken and "flap", raising your elbow to shoulder height. Your fingers should feel that pocket form as the bent arm rises and collapse as the bent arm is brought back to the body. More pronounced if you flex the pectoral muscle throughout the motion.

 

[MCMXI]

Bend your other arm as if to mimic a chicken and "flap", raising your elbow to shoulder height. Your fingers should feel that pocket form as the bent arm rises and collapse as the bent arm is brought back to the body.

I've found that shooting a rifle that produces any kind of significant recoil with my right elbow pointing to the right (both upper arm and forearm horizontal) is brutal. That's how many trap shooters hold a shotgun and it simply doesn't work for me with centerfire rifles. I bring my elbow down to my side.

 

[sage5907]

It seems to me that when you raise a rifle to the shooting position the trigger elbow will naturally go horizontal and the result will be a naturally formed pocket for the butt of the rifle to rest. The rifle butt will naturally go to this point without you having to position it there. That brings me to my point, have you thought about putting a recoil pad on your rifle. A Pachmayr Decellerator pad with the basket weave texture will cut the felt recoil in half. Also, some people will square their body toward the target so the bulk of the recoil is into the body instead of the shoulder. If your length of pull is correct you can cant your body so the recoil is into your shoulder instead of your body. If these suggestions don't work decrease your powder charges.

 

[BCRider]

It seems to me that when you raise a rifle to the shooting position the trigger elbow will naturally go horizontal....

Sorry, but I think you've been shooting so long that it's only automatic for you and others with a lot of shooting history. For myself and the new shooters I've helped it is FAR from being a natural movement. Not even close actually. For the style of rifles and style of shooting that works better with the elbow right up just about level with the gun I have to force it both with myself and new first time shooters.

Mind you I also need to force myself and new shooters to tuck the elbow down for square on tactical style positioning.

All in all the natural position seems to come in at something around a 40 to 45 degree angle.

 

[Sam1911]

Here's a guy working with some big bores. You can clearly see where he puts the butt for his shots. He also doesn't bring his arm up as far as he could. Seems being relaxed is more important.



Note that he is using a recoil pad (you can see it in the fabric of his vest). But he's also shooting stuff that's probably a bit bigger than yours.

 

[sage5907]

If you watch the video closely you'll notice that he raised his elbow higher when he shouldered the rifle and then lowered it to get comfortable for the shot. Also, I understand that his friends call him "Blinkey."

 

[200Apples]

.

But he's also shooting stuff that's probably a bit bigger than yours.

Hahaha...

Indeed!

 

[30Cal]

Shooting coat. It makes a world of difference and is worth every cent. You should be able to find one for $50 or so.