Congressional hearings: BATFE and H.R. 5005 (merged)

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I know that HI's shall-issue bill (which didn't go anywhere) was specifically drafted in response to (and to accomodate) cop-carry so it definitely will help us get through in states that otherwise wouldn't get it anytime this century.

Same thing is sort of going on here in California. There are 50k permits in the state, and now cops from anywhere in the US can carry anywhere in CA, so you add it up and actually a bunch of people are carrying here. Ten years ago no one here would have seriously thought about CCW. Now that we here are aware of it a lot of people are pushing their sheriffs for permits. If we keep on pushing we will eventually get there.

But this "MGs-for-Blackwater" bill, that's bad news and doesn't do a thing for us.

I would rather deal with BATF agents busting down my door than out-of-control Blackwater mercs with M4s. At least with the BATF I have someone I can sue for a billion dollars if they screw up.
 
First and foremost, let me say that I did not want to hijack this thread into a cop carry thread. I was merely relating the cop carry law, as well as the militarization of the police (.50bmgs) to this Pro-Mercenary law.

but I must point out that cop carry has helped us non-cops a little bit. In places that are absolutely no CCW, where CCW is culturally repulsive, like Hawaii and Illinois, it is good to force them to accept that non-locals are packing. That's an especially big deal in HI. If non-locals, outsiders are packing, then shouldn't we be allowed to pack also?


Wrong. "non-locals" are not packing...Police and ex-police are packing.

This is precisely how that strategy is mislabeling the truth. LEO's are in a different class entirely whether or not someone is willing to accept that as reality. This is precisely the way people in that "culture" will see it. That is why this strategy is completely flawed. I admit, I was very hostile and rude to folks from Illinois and other ultra-anti-CC states based on this. They insist that this is a good strategy, when it is flawed in every way. If having police (which are a tiny minority anyway) carrying somehow changes the political atmosphere over there, I'll EAT my words and apologize. But it won't happen, not because there isn't enough cop carry, but because they ARE cops who are carrying. Different class of human. I was hostile because I felt that this strategy was terribly selfish on the part of those in ban-states. Note that I totally feel for them..I do. In that I want to see them gain concealed carry by rejecting cop carry. Cop carry, in my honest opinion will futher delay civilian carry. It didn't help, it wasn't neutral, it will actually hurt. I also reject the argument that cop carry will at least make the general concept of concealed carry more palatable. While this is the best argument of these long-shot flawed ideas, it too is doomed, because most of these people will not attribute successful cop carry to successful civilian carry. You can't say "see, someoen carries, why shouldn't you" because these people are already OK with cops carrying in the first place. The idea is to convince them that civilian carry is OK. You do this by arguing that a huge majority of states in this country have it, and have no problems as a result. If they won't listen, then they certainly won't somehow equate cop carry to civilian competency and safety. The "cops can do it, so should we" argument will never fly for concealed carry. If that works, and to be honest, I HOPE IT DOES..then why shouldn't we use that argument when it comes to the type of weaponry that police use. Certainly, the police can get their hands on stuff we will never be able to...if they can have it, why can't we?

BTW, proposed bills and actual reform are two different things.


I also think the political culture in some ban-states is too overwhelming. I lived in NY State..I didn't care for it (and it's better than Illinois or California). I took a pay cut and came to Florida, its pro-gun and better in many other ways. Like Ronald Reagan said, people vote with their FEET. Move to a better state. Here in Florida, my VOTE counts..in NY, it is a wasted minority vote. I'd rather be in a progun state and suppress a minority of gun-grabbers, than to be in a gun-grabber state being suppressed by a majority of gun-grabbers.


As for this Mercenary Enabler Bill...it falls down the same lines. I hope that many pro-gun people aren't tricked into supporting a bill they think will help their efforts. It is the exact same dynamic at work. People thinking that State-approved users of such weapons constitutes a just reason for civilian use of such weapons. Again, this is from the non-gun crowds perspective.
 
Hey guys that think Blackwater's mercenaries won't go after U.S. citizens please wake up.


They will do what they are told. They will be given there orders and whatever story is needed to get them to follow their orders.


If you don't think so look at the video of the National Gaurd (not people makeing 150,000 a year as mercs.) going from door to door seizing people's firearms and forcing them from their homes.

If the national guard would execute those orders that totally destroyed the 4th amendment. Then what refusal do you expect from a guy who in 5 more years will be a millionaire.

The government will soon be allowing 30 million socialist's who came here illegaly the vote they will vote for socialists.

We will become insurgents and blackwater's Hessians (The finest Hessians money can buy) will be coming after us after having fought counter insurgencies in several countries.


And why the F@@@ are corporations getting a bill to give them more rights than people
 
New Orleans Blackwater security pay and gear(as of two months ago.). Approximately $250 per day(12 hour shifts). Issued semi auto Bushmaster AR Carbine and Glock 17 and ball-FMJ-ammo for both.

How does one make the leap of asserting the actions of some of the members of one group will be done (or not) by a disparate group?
 
As for this bill being worthless who are you kidding?

It repeals the multiple handgun reporting and allows the importation of rifle recievers for repair and replacement.

And it limits who the BATFE can give info to and permanently codifies it (no more appropriaiton bill amendments)

Basically it would be to law enforcement who need the info for prosecuting criminals.
 
As you mentioned, ATF searching is already killed in the budget bills. "Permanently" codifying this in law vs "non-permanently" in appropriations is not as big a distinction as you think. The appropriations bill that got rid of felon rights restoration is still going strong over 10 years later.

I have plenty of handguns and I have never run into problems with the multiple handgun rule. Everyone I know who buys lots of handguns at once is already a dealer, so their ATF grief is provided for elsewhere in the statutes. Multiple handgun needs to go away on principle, but not at this high a price.

So they are conceding a bunch of minor principles (that arent even onerous in practice yet, certainly not crisis level) but dont fix the many serious harms that are resulting from ATF misconduct, and create a new class of fedgov henchman to kick in doors and shoot people. This is something we need less of, not more.
 
AZRickD wrote:

Did you notice how many times Kirsten Rand said, "more gun stores than gas stations?"

She looked like she had a corn cob up her backside.

Rick
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I thought that I had mentioned Ms. Rand's rant. Must have been in another discussion.

In ay case, while she told us all about how there were, once upon a time, more FFL's than gas stations, she left viewers/listeners in a quandary regarding exactly what the problem with this situation is or was. Her inference might be that all these licensees, or a significant portion thereof, were operating in an illegal manner, however such inference has yet to be demonstrated correct. In any case, while it is possible that some FFL's failed to abide by the law, the same could be said for gas station operators.

Of course, the fact that any guns are sold to private citizens, by however small the number of dealers, would likely be upsetting to anti gun apparatchiks such as Ms. Rand, but we need not discuss that aspect of the thing here and or now. Her situation, of and in itself, raises more question as to the validity of her comments than I could.

BTW Rick, I must express a degree of admiration regarding your picturesque characterization of Ms. Rand. Well said sir.

Another poster commented to the effect that, he would rather face an ATF raid, than being burst in on by Blackwater people, because respecting the antics of BATFE, at least he could sue them. The above is not an exact quote.

When was the last time he tried suing a government agency or entity? At least, respecting suits against Blackwater, or similar entity, his action would be brought against a corporation. Corporations usually carry insurance, and lack "soverign immunity", and other interesting examples of what government entities are or might be equipped with. For instance, Lt. Lara of the Tuscon P.D., mentined earlier, who one would think would have a good case against ATF, and his department hasn't filed suit, so far as I know. Perhaps he will, assuming that he can foot the bill for additional court actions, or that he might find competent counsel willing to take the case Pro Bono. Otherwise, it appears that he's been "screwed, blued and tatooed", Of course, miscellaneous public servants and bureaucrats, like Old Man River, will simply Go Rolling Along.

Given the way things often come out, I suspect that one would fare better bringing suit against a private corporation, than they would fare bringing suit against a government agency. I could be wrong, of course, but for whatever it might be worth, that's the way it looks to me.
 
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In other parts of this discussion, various posters have suggested cutting BATFE's budget, and or doing away with the agency entirely, as well as the drawing and quartering of ATF personnel.

While I'm not a fan of the agency, might I offer the following. They didn't create themselves, they are a creature of the Congress. Additionally, BATFE didn't create the law. Tag The Congress with that problem or failure, however you might choose to describe it. While the following might well present a hellish problem for our side, to hell with "might create a problem" it does create a problem, the fact of the garbage already existing in the statute books stands out.

To mention just a couple of the above, The National firearms Act of 1934 comes to mind, as does the Gun Control Act of 1968. Of course, there are also all those interesting "regulations" in effect, law issued by bureaucratic decree, a ploy enshrined in congressional action, or inaction, as the Congress makes provision for and or allows such activity.

Funny thing, but the act of repealing legislation is tantamount to admission on the part of the legisative body that earlier actions were wrong. How many of us would be willing to publically stand up, and in the full light of day, admit to error? I canot cite any particular number, however I'm certain that some amongst us have. I know I have, once anyhow, which leaves me wondering as to what is so special about our "elected things".

Should you think I'm a damned fool or a dreamer, you might be right, still the idea above mentioned, strikes me as interesting.
 
Desertdog wrote:

The #1 reform needed over at the BATF is to simply cut their budget.

How about making them pay for their mistakes by being sued for false arrest, loss of pay and cost of defense if found innocent by a jury?

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Interesting idea, one that I believe I've seen mentioned earlier, in other places.

Point of contentiion comes from the following. When was the first of the "them" charged, indicted and actually prosecuted as a result of their actions, actions taken "under the color or law"?

Who would it be that actually would pay money damages, other than you, as a taxpayer, I assume you are one such. After all, agency funds are appropriations of public monies, spelled taxpayer dollars.

Finally, where do we go from the following juncture, when it is oh so conveniently discovered that the offending agencies and their employees have the significant benefit of "immunity".
 
If you were to set-up a completely private Blackwater facility, and EXCLUDE LE and Military from using it, the Feds would label it a "compound" or "radical militia"...

Blackwater might be open to the public for some training, but they are the tools of the Feds. Make no mistake about it.

I don't doubt that the men of Blackwater are pro-American. Just recall the revolution, folks on both sides believed they were the one's who were defending righteousness. One side fights tyranny, the other side fights traitors. I have no doubt in my mind these guys would fight for the Feds against civilians, and in their minds, they'd fight as patriots against radicals and traitors of America. They will work for whomever pays the bills. $$$ is the loyalty factor, not politics. These are mercenaries.

Perspective.

As Beerslurpy says, it's bad enough to further arm these types. We don't need more and more "contractors" popping up in service of the government. With the National Guard proving to be the equivalent of Redcoat thugs in New Orleans...the debate is over as far as "will they follow unjust orders". Do we need to add insult to injury when we already have the NG acting as thugs?
 
Don't Tread On Me, I've got to throw a little thread drift in here, but you keep bringing up the NG in New Orleans, as if every single one of the thousands of men there were confiscating guns.

Do you have any clue,whatsoever, of how many different units said "screw that" and didn't confiscate any guns, or how many individual guardsmen it was who called home, and told people in their home states to contact their respective governors office to raise hell. How many days did this confiscation go on? How was it that we found out about this stuff to begin with, (go back and check the posts during this time to see who posted the updates on the confiscations here on this board and on others, gee whiz, maybe it was people with close guard contact). It was people in the guard, who went down there to help out, that kept the rest of us in the loop as to what was going on.

Yes, there were some NG that confiscated guns. The vast majority did not, and the orders went over like a lead balloon. Heck, the federal government won't allow the guard in my home state to have nuclear weapons for a reason.

Guard are human beings. Many of them are more pro liberty than you are. So if I were you, I would back the hell off of the Red Coat nonsense.
 
I have no links nor storys. Just first hand accounts from individuals who were there. Of the thousands of men, from hundreds of units, how many links can you provide me of which NG units actually confiscated guns? (I know of one from Oklahoma which did it for all of what, a day and a half?).

And from my knowledge, it wasn't so much of a direct refusal, as it was handed down, and the people who received it ignored it, and went back to work trying to help people. So no dramatic video there.

The National Guard is not Thugs and they are not Red Coats. When I posted on this board about the confiscations as they were actually occuring, and urged everybody to call their governor's office to enquire about what their state's NG was being used for, where do you think I got my info from?

In a situation so perfectly set up for gun confiscation-
a. Massive disaster.
b. Most of the people like us, were smart enough to get the hell out.
c. Total governmental control of the area.
d. Saturated in law enforcement and government troops.
e. Almost complete control of the media in the area.
f. A free pass from the media because of the disaster.
-it sure did fail quickly didn't it? That gives me hope. And it tells me that realistically most of our guys in blue, green, and ACU are not Red Coats or Thugs.

I don't know why I read L&P. I never can keep up on who is coming to get me this week; Blackwater, the National Guard, or the Mexicans.
 
As Pogo observed(and this reference to a along ago comic strip character-one of the first Swiftian satirists in that media -certainly dates me) "we have met the enemy and he is us."
 
Beerslurpy,

Guess who controls the appropriations process?

Pro gun Republicans.

When they lose power, we all lose.

The Dems will reject these amemendments.

They will make sure the BATFE has even more power.

We needs these PERMANENT!
 
We need to be able to sue like the enviromentalist get to. I think Congress gave them the power to sue to make the EPA jumpt to their tune. Why can't we get the power to sue in Federal Court the BATFE when we do not like thier regulations. That would be within 24 hours like the enviros get to. Straight to a Federal Judge. And we are not even talking about regulating a constitutional right with the enviros.
 
Justin wrote:
BATFE didn't create the law.


No, but as a regulatory agency, they are free to create, authorize and enforce regulations, such as the recent ban on importing receivers and such.

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Justin:

In post # 60, I made mention of that factor, and the fact that their authority to "promulgate reguations" regulations that become the nuts and bolts of the law, comes directly from The Congress. It goes without saying that The Congress could eliminate both the regulations and BATFE's ability/authority to issue same.
 
In post # 59, I referenced another correspondent mentioning the fact that he would rather face a BATFE raid, than one by Blackwater people, because at least he could sue the BATFE

Couldn't find that post yesterday, however I found it today. It's post # 51, where that portion reads as follows.

ElTacoGrande wrote in part:

I would rather deal with BATF agents busting down my door than out-of-control Blackwater mercs with M4s. At least with the BATF I have someone I can sue for a billion dollars if they screw up.

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For reasons stated in my post, I will stick to my guns, re the conclusions I've drawn, regarding the possibility of a gun owner bringing suit against a government entity, as opposed to bringing suit against a private or publically held corporation.
 
Don't Tread On Me said:
I have no doubt in my mind these guys would fight for the Feds against civilians, and in their minds, they'd fight as patriots against radicals and traitors of America. They will work for whomever pays the bills. $$$ is the loyalty factor, not politics. These are mercenaries.
Now that's a real kick in the face to people like me - thanks very much.

<sarcasm>Yeah, we'd fight fight for Al Qaeda because they'd pay us more than we got</sarcasm> - I'm sure the guys who didn't come back enjoy your appreciation of their efforts. Will you be calling us "babykillers" and spitting on us anytime soon?

Get that paranoia checked before it progresses any further, chum. Better yet, get out of your comfy armchair, go over there and do some work - might open your eyes a bit.
 
Sorry Andy but noone's calling anyone a babykiller. You might not use force against Americans. Maybe none of Blackwater's current forces would use force against Americans. But you can't gaurantee that no Professional Blackwater soldier will ever use force against Americans now or in the future. Ask a kid about the Bill of rights and see what he knows about it hell ask an active duty soldier. I'm sure a small percentage won't have a clue about the Bill of rights. This small percentage with the full compliment of modern weapons could do quite a bit of damage.


I was the one who started the Hessian references it's unfortunate that I have to paint with such a wide brush. But the fact of the matter is there are people being paid to fight for this country and the fact that the government now wants to give the companies that pay you and your comrades MORE RIGHTS than I or any other normal citizen is cause for great alarm.

Why does the government want to give more 2A rights to corporations than to the people??

That is the billion dollar question.
 
Wait, so the video footage of an entire NG platoon, toting M16's, backing up the police who were doing the "dirty work" is a figment of our imagination?

Let's say the NG did not conduct the actual confiscations, why are they backing up the police who were doing the handcuffing of civilians who've committed no crime, the illegal, warrantless, unreasonable search and seizure of homes, and the illegal confiscation of firearms? Why? Why did they walk the streets going door to door along with the cops?

They were providing the muscle for the logical conclusion of resistance. The potential of such that is. It makes sense does it not? If the 2-3 officers/ATF whatever could do it themselves, why bring along a squad of NG with you? If it were only a couple of officers, would the civilian population just laugh at them or shoot them? Would the civilians NOT comply with the order? Hmm...

In THE greatest disaster in American history, with virtually the whole country screaming about the absense of federal response, aid, help, etc...the local government felt that they'd prioritize the precious few NG resources they had by using SOME of them to back up confiscators. Given this, it would be safe to assume THEY (the local police officials) felt that their confiscators NEEDED a strong armed back up to do what they were doing. They needed the NG to provide the "bite" behind their "bark"...

Now, this makes the NG who were strolling around making fun of the whole process accomplices, all while the actual local authorities make the moves.

If they wanted to do the right thing, that would have been to abandon the confiscators, or to not even go "out on patrol" with them in the first place.


***

I take back my statement about the NG being Redcoats. That paints them all with a broad brush, it is unfair, and disrespectful to their patriotic service defening my freedom. For that I sincerely apologize.

Instead, the actual NG that actively participated in gun confiscations are traitors of the very Constitution that they swore to defend. I'm sorry if you deem that not very "high road", I just call it what it is, and quite frankly, it is not an inappropriate statement. If we cannot call things what they are, then we've lost any hope of preserving liberty. Their actions were treasonous, and their prior service in Iraq does not create an excuse or an immunity from scrutiny for committing such crimes.


Finally,

It is unfair, and quite un-American to use patriotism, nationalism, appeal to authority, pro-military'ism as a reason for me not to question authority. The NG, police, feds, et al., their jobs, service, duty does not make them a special class of citizen, and it certainly does not lower my status as a citizen to raise questions. I owe them a thanks for what they've done in righteousness only, but I don't owe them any slack when it comes to the commission of crimes.
 
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