Considering a first Garand. Reloading econ. is a major factor.

[Ignition Override]

So far, my only reloading is for my .303 Lee Enfields, using light powder and 147-grain bullets. I've not calculated the economics, but new Prvi works at least four-five times. I'm only learning reloading for economics and to save my surplus for very long-term reserve.

Being interesting in acquiring a first Garand (CMP Only), I just read somewhere on Google that the CMP supposedly recommends reloading GI ball ammo only twice, due to questions about brass stress during extraction etc.

With light powder/bullet loads and simple Lee single-stage gear, is this the preferred limit for a novice reloader with a Garand?

It would be a shame not to obtain better reloading economics, as with my newer Prvi .303 brass, neck-sizing only.

 

[dmazur]

With light powder/bullet loads and simple Lee single-stage gear, is this the preferred limit for a novice reloader with a Garand?

It would be a shame not to obtain better reloading economics, as with my newer Prvi .303 brass, neck-sizing only.

While most would agree that there are "heavy loads" for a Garand (i.e. most commercial hunting ammo, light magnums, etc.), I don't think there is such a thing as a light load. At least not one that works.

The Garand is gas-operated. Think in terms of engines. There has to be the correct amount of gas, at the correct pressure or it either won't turn over, or it will turn over so fast it damages itself.

Because the gas-operated action is trying to extract the brass before it has a chance to contract, extraction is kind of rough on brass. Rims and heads can be stretched. (If you need convincing evidence of the speed of extraction/ejection, pick up a freshly-ejected case from a Garand and compare it to a bolt-action. The Garand will be almost too hot to handle, and the other relatively cool.)

Because of the danger of slamfires, most Garand experts recommend full-length resizing only, and to SAAMI minimum. Again, it isn't a bolt-action and bolt-action techniques are not applicable.

However, I get 4 or 5 firings out of Winchester brass. I could probably push for more, but things are looking pretty torn up after 5, and I know I've stretched the head 5 times. So I just pony up and buy more brass.

 

[Ignition Override]

Your comments are very informative. Slight variations with Wolf or Monarch (or the mag spring?) might cause a stove bolt now and then in my Norinco SKS.

If you used Greek (etc) GI M2 ammo available at the CMP, would most owners anticipate an equal number of reloads, as the ammo produces a bit less pressure than commercial 30-06?

 

[dmazur]

Additional info -

I understand the reason why a lot of Garand shooters install an adjustable gas screw (aka "gas nut") is that it allows you to adjust the amount of gas available to cycle the action, reducing receiver battering and brass damage.

These devices don't alter the rifle permanently and are easily swapped back for the original part.

There are two that I know of, the McCann and Schuster. The first uses exchangeable inserts with different orifice sizes and the second uses a pair of setscrews to adjust and lock a relief vent. Cost is around $40 for either.

While the usual application is to permit shooting commercial ammo, it can also tone down the receiver battering you can get from Greek HXP.

The gas screw has to be adjusted for whatever ammo you use, and readjusted if you change ammo types. It isn't self-regulating.

Here's a link to an older article about Garand ammo. There's a discussion on reloading near the end. -

http://carnival.saysuncle.com/002449.html

 

[Tim the student]

Being interesting in acquiring a first Garand (CMP Only), I just read somewhere on Google that the CMP supposedly recommends reloading GI ball ammo only twice, due to questions about brass stress during extraction etc.

I've never heard that before. It may be a good thing to ask on the CMP forums. I can tell you I've gotten at least 3 reloads out of HXP brass. Those still pass the paper clip test, and no neck splits either. (I have a decently large stash of HXP brass, so I haven't loaded any to what I felt was the end of the brass life. I'll be reloading that brass till I can't safely reload it any more.) I want to say that I have read reports of guys getting a lot more than 5 loads out of the brass, but I don't have the time to look for those posts now.

(If you need convincing evidence of the speed of extraction/ejection, pick up a freshly-ejected case from a Garand and compare it to a bolt-action. The Garand will be almost too hot to handle, and the other relatively cool.)

I thought that was from the time it spent in the chamber. A gas gun has a fraction of the amount of time that a bolt gun has to transfer the heat to the chamber. Either way, brass from a gas gun (any of mine at least) is much hotter than brass from a bolt gun.

If you really want to reload on the cheap, I would build up a collection of HXP brass. I think that is the cheapest way to go all things considered. You're getting around 40 bucks worth of brass as part of the deal. Granted, it is once fired vs new, but still.

Either way, reloading it or shooting surplus is way cheaper than shooting the new Garand safe commercial stuff, or shooting other commercial loads with an adjustable gas plug.

 

[Slamfire]

When you load for a Garand you have to full length resize your brass, and you should always set up your sizing die with a cartridge headspace gage. I recommend sizing to gage minimum.




All primers should be seated by hand and visually inspected to ensure that they are below the case head. High primers can cause slamfires. Sensitive primers cause slamfires, the most slam firing primers in Garands are Federal. I recommend CCI#34’s if you can find them.

Garands cannot be hot loaded like bolt rifles. The “best” powder is IMR 4895, this was used in the NM Ammo of the 60’s. Use powders in the burn range of IMR 3031 to IMR 4064. Nothing slower than IMR 4064. A load of 46 to 47 grains IMR 4895 with a 150 will duplicate factory velocities.

As for case stretching, I don’t have case head separations in my Garands and M1a’s since I started lubricating my cases. I got the idea from a Distinguished HM gunsmith, he took a set of brass an entire shooting season in his M1a’s.

He left RCBS case lube on the cases. His case had a slightly greasy feeling to them, most of the lube gets lost due to handling in subsequent stages of reloading. If you did not know it was case lube you would think maybe your fingers were a bit dirty: it does not take much case lubrication to protect your cases from stretching.

I did not like leaving RCBS case lube on as the stuff will attract dust. So I rubbed on Johnson paste wax on my loaded cases. I buffed the rapid fire rounds. I ran an experiement to see just how long I could run 100 LC66 cases in my match M1a.

I took 100 cases 24 firings fired in two M1a's. Cases were full length resized in a small base die, and lubricated with Johnson Paste Wax before firing. Cases were sized to 1.640 minimum, as determined by a Wilson case guage. The barrel originally headspaced at 1.643. So the cases were sized .003" below chamber size. I have not had one case head separation. I attribute this to lubrication of the case body. So far I have had Case Neck Splits ; 1 at the 11 Reload, 1 at 15 R, four at 18R, 2 at 20R, 1 at 21 R. Case body splits have occurred with one at the 10th Reload, one at 17R.

I sectioned some of these defective cases and did not find any evidence of case separation. I have sectioned range pickups, fired in someone else's rifle, and the absolute lack of case separation in my cases is obvious in comparison. The last I reloaded them, I spent 10 minutes going through my cases with a paper clip, until I got bored, and found no evidence of a case ring. Primer pockets were reamed to depth at the 9th and 16th reload because primers seemed high. Primer pockets are tight enough to hold the primers in rapid fire, but they are definitely looser than new brass. There are a lot of scratches on the outside of these cases.

The last time I fired these cases was during the rattle battle at Camp Perry 2000. I was going to leave them on the ground, but I ended up picking them up. I have not resized or reloaded them since then. Incidentally I was shooting HM scores, at 100 yard reduced matches, and on the occasional yard line with these cases. Accuracy seemed to be unaffected in a service rifle.

 

[ScottyPotty]

what is the paper clip trick?

 

[NuJudge]

Paper Clip trick is bending a paper clip straight, then put a hook at one end, and feel down near the head inside the case for incipient case failure. You'll feel a ring inside the case.

 

[NCsmitty]

So far I have had Case Neck Splits ; 1 at the 11 Reload, 1 at 15 R, four at 18R, 2 at 20R, 1 at 21 R.

SlamFire1, have you considered annealing your cases, or do you? Chances are that you would get even more safe loads from those cases, if the primer pockets stay reasonably tight.



NCsmitty

 

[Ignition Override]

Some of this is a little hard to follow, but looks familiar and is interesting.
dmazur:
Just read the first part of the article you linked and it appears to be a truly outstanding description.

Whenever I decide to buy the Garand, my "gun guru" here will not only help identify a nice rifle at the CMP, but also assist with first reloading.

 

[Tim the student]

I did not like leaving RCBS case lube on as the stuff will attract dust. So I rubbed on Johnson paste wax on my loaded cases.

So, I'm assuming that Johnson's won't attract dust? I'd assume that it would... Sounds like a great idea - I'm going to add that trick to my next batch of M1 loads. I'll be happy if I can get less than 1/2 of the amount of reloads that you did.

 

[Slamfire]

SlamFire1, have you considered annealing your cases, or do you? Chances are that you would get even more safe loads from those cases, if the primer pockets stay reasonably tight.

I could have, but I have never annealed cases. Annealing takes too much time when you are shooting each weekend, or every other weekend. I needed to just size, trim, prime, and get the stuff loaded for next weekend. Plus I was really not hard up for brass. I was given thousands of LC match cases, I just wanted to get the maximum life out of them. Seemed a waste just to toss them when they still had plenty of life if it were not for the case head separations that develop due to semi automatic actions. I finally retired the brass because it was very easy to push primers in the pockets. I could have used it longer in a bolt rifle but I was concerned that a primer could get knocked out on feed and cause a misfire. I do not want to have a malfunction and shoot an alibis. With alibis you get the low shots out of a string of ten, it is hard enough to shoot ten perfect shots, then you have to try to do it all over again, and instead, you drop points.

All semi automatic mechanisms open up when there is residual breech pressure. The developer measures the pressure curve and designs the mechanism to open up below the rupture strength of the brass. Col Chin’s book said 650 psia for 20 mm brass. This residual pressure increases the amount of time energy is available to operate the mechanism. Unfortunately it stretches the brass. The front of the case is still expanded to the chamber at unlock. So it gets stretched during extraction. If the case is lubricated, and the pressure curve at unlock is within spec, you don’t have that sort of stretching. M1a’s and M1’s are particularly hard on brass (FAL’s are worse!) whereas you can take .223 brass in a AR 10 reloads without any issues. The pressure drop curves must be different in these mechanisms.

This also worked for me as I never tried to hot rod ammunition in these rifles. Loading max bolt gun loads will beat up a Garand or a M1a. I will bet my loads never exceeded 50,000 psia.

In fact, the pressure on most service rifle ammunition was in the 40K psia range. See the specs on the 1963 NM ammo.

So, I'm assuming that Johnson's won't attract dust? I'd assume that it would... Sounds like a great idea - I'm going to add that trick to my next batch of M1 loads. I'll be happy if I can get less than 1/2 of the amount of reloads that you did

Yes, it does not attract dust and you can't even tell it is on a case after it is buffed. I found in cold weather cases with globs of paste wax caused the bolt to close on an empty chamber. The rounds were not rising fast enough. So I buffed my rapid fire cases and all was well. Slow fire stuff, it went into the chamber clumpy.

I tried a number of different waxes, Johnsons was thicker and worked well. The stuff melts due to the heat of combustion and that provides a viscous layer between the case and the chamber.

Clean your chamber out at the end of each match. I always do that regardless of the rifle. I use a chamber brush.

Incidentally, I think some commercial ammunition may have an invisible wax coating. I have factory Federal that has underfilm corrosion. Looks like spider webs. This type of corrosion occurs under coatings. It would not surprise me in the least to find out ammunition makers have coated their cartridges with ceresin wax (as in the Pedersen rifle) to keep the cartridges shiny and bright on the shelf. http://www.mnfpetroleum.com/New/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99&Itemid=100

Lubricated cases shoot as well as dry.

This was shot with a match Garand and paste wax on the cases.




This was shot with a rack Garand in a 200 yard Garand match. I did not have enough time to clean the cases of lube and then apply paste wax, so I simply left the RCBS water soluble on and shot the stuff the next day.

This is the best rack grade target I have shot. I found a rack grade that would finally hold the ten ring, mostly. The others I have shot, they would mostly hold the black, always leaking an eight.

 

[Sunray]

"...somewhere on Google..." That'd be like Wikipedia. Anybody with Internet access can post there. Isn't necessarily right.
Been load for my rifle for 30 years. Not with milsurp brass though. Milsurp brass needs the load to be reduced by 10% die it being a bit thicker than commercal. Most requires the primer crimp removed too. Not a big deal. One time nuisance.
Full length resize, every time and watch the case lengths. Trim as required and don't forget to chamfer and deburr. Other than that loading for a semi-auto is no different than for anything else.
IMR4895 is fine, but IMR4064 gives more consistent accuracy. 150, 165, 168 or 175 grain bullets(latter two being match bullet$. There are 150 grain match bullet$ now too though. Match bullets are not cheap.) Hornady and Sierra make a 150 grain FMJ.
You don't need CCI "milspec" primers. They're just magnum primers.
"...lubricated with Johnson Paste Wax before firing..." DO NOT LUBE THE CASES BEFORE FIRING. It's completely unnecessary and may cause excess pressures.
The Hornady manual has an M1 specific chapter.

 

[dmazur]

"...lubricated with Johnson Paste Wax before firing..." DO NOT LUBE THE CASES BEFORE FIRING. It's completely unnecessary and may cause excess pressures.

Someone with extensive experience with Garands may decide to take advantage of the incredible overdesign of the action and lube cases to increase brass life.

This practice probably doesn't cause excess pressures in the chamber...the load is the same with or without lube, and there isn't anything going on like an unintentional case mouth crimp from a case length which is too long.

What it probably causes is excess force on the bolt. The case isn't gripping the chamber with the same friction during firing, as it was designed to.

I don't have the experience to go down that road at this time, but I can understand what is going on. I think.

 

[Maj Dad]

Slam, do you wipe it on with fingers or cloth? Lightly, or liberally? Air dry, or buff right away? Etc etc... I had head separations on cases loaded <4 times last weekend in my low mileage Armscorp w/SAK bbl & TRW bolt - talk about a surprise! I have a large can of Johnson's Paste Wax in my sights right now...

 

[Ignition Override]

Sunray:
Well, the quote about the CMP recommending no more than two reloads wasn't found on Wikipedia, but turned up as an excerpt from some other gun website I did not recognize (like so many).

Looking fwd to learning about how to lube cases for prolonged use, whenever the trip to the CMP in Anniston happens (maybe July).

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

As for case stretching, I don’t have case head separations in my Garands and M1a’s since I started lubricating my cases. I got the idea from a Distinguished HM gunsmith, he took a set of brass an entire shooting season in his M1a’s.

I have been leaving my Imperial wax I use to resize the cases on all my rifle cases since around one year after reading about it. I noticed less stretching compared to the batches I tumbled after resizing to clean the lube.

Question:Anyone could tell if I can use Ramshot Big Game to reload for a Garand?

Thank you

 

[Slamfire]

Slam, do you wipe it on with fingers or cloth? Lightly, or liberally? Air dry, or buff right away? Etc etc... I had head separations on cases loaded <4 times last weekend in my low mileage Armscorp w/SAK bbl & TRW bolt - talk about a surprise! I have a large can of Johnson's Paste Wax in my sights right now...

I sit in front of the TV with an ammo box of reloads, I dip a fannel rag into the can of Johnson paste wax and roll the loaded round on the rag. Then I toss the case into a plastic bin to dry. These waxes, and that includes car waxes, have a solvent into which the wax is dissolved. You have to wait for the solvent to evaporate before you have hard wax to buff.

As for your Armscorp, make sure that your case shoulders are not pushed back more than .006” from chamber max. Six thousandths (or is it .004”?) is the difference between max and min on a 308. If you have an oversized chamber, and the case has to expand .006” each time you shoot it, your brass won’t be long for this world. I highly recommend using a cartridge case headspace gage to measure once fired brass (to determine chamber headspace) and then to set up your sizing die.

Another issue with short case life is early unlock. Many commercial barrels have gas ports larger than GI. Gene Barnett, the barrel maker that most M1a Highpower used shooters during the hey day of the M1a, he uses a commercial drill that is one size above the GI gas port. (I talked to him and that is what he told me.) I can assure you that the GI gas port is not undersized. It was sized for 100% function in Artic conditions so your gas cylinder is getting plenty of gas with a GI gas port. I suspect the GI gas port requires a non standard diameter drill bit so barrel makers use standard drill bits. A larger gas port, such as found in commercial barrels, will accelerate the operating rod faster than a GI gas port causing early unlock, and that stretches the heck out of a cartridge case.

I had one M1a with a Douglas match barrel that just tore case heads off. It was a case of early unlock. I bought one of those vented gas cylinder lock screws and that helped.

This is not restricted to M1a barrels. I had a 30-06 Wilson match barrel installed on a Garand. That barrel ejected brass violently, almost as violently as my PTR91. Was not very accurate either, which I attributed to early violent unlock.

In Dec 07 I took the barrel off and installed a used VAR barrel. (which shot great!) The Wilson barrel gas port was able to accept a .076 diameter drill. Same drill was too much too big to fit into VAR gas port. Same drill was much too big for a like new LMR barrel.

I called Wilson Barrels and talked to Steve the General Manager. He assured me that they cut their barrel gas ports to GI drawing dimensions. All I can say, what is on paper disagrees with the as built hardware . And that would not be the first or last time that the TDP was not being followed on the factory floor.

What it probably causes is excess force on the bolt. The case isn't gripping the chamber with the same friction during firing, as it was designed to.

I suspect you read this in Gun Magazine articles written by non technical gunwriters. These guys don’t know an integral from a standard deviation. They can eat cake, but they don’t know how to bake a cake. They are not qualified to express an opinion beyond their taste buds. These shills are paid to sell cake, if you have not figured out what they really do.

I purchased all the gun design books I could find. There are not a lot and they are very expensive. Not one gun mechanism is designed assuming the case takes any load. Brass cases are not structural elements, cases are gas seals. Breech friction is undesirable in a semi automatic mechanism. Excessive breech friction will cause all semi automatic mechanisms to malfunction. Just read all the complaints due to steel case ammo in AR’s. Too much breech friction between the case and the chamber.


The roller bolt mechanism is a prime example of designers having to find a way to reduce breech friction. This delayed blow back mechanism opens so early and so violently in the pressure curve that case rims and case heads were being ripped off. The Germans found the solution in a captured Russian machine gun: gas lubrication. The HK91 has gas flutes that float the upper 2/3rds of the case from the chamber. This is to reduce breech friction. If you want to jam a HK91 mechanism, just fire enough surplus ammo with tar sealant around the bullets. The tar gums up the flutes and the gun jams.

 

[Slamfire]

I have been leaving my Imperial wax I use to resize the cases on all my rifle cases since around one year after reading about it. I noticed less stretching compared to the batches I tumbled after resizing to clean the lube

.

The foundations of science: Observation and experimentation. You are following the advice of the 1660 founders of the Royal Society: Do not accept anything on Authority, evidence is everything. Science should live or die by the facts alone.