Does brass stretch mostly during the first use?

[Ignition Override]

It is not easy to trim some of these .303 cases. This is the Lee manual trimmer, and sometimes it will not even go all the way into the case.

Luckily most of mine are newer Prvi. These reloads use the minimum powder and only 147-grain bullets.

 

[918v]

No. It stretches after every use. The amount of stretch depends on pressure and how much you size the case.

 

[R.W.Dale]

No. It stretches after every use. The amount of stretch depends on pressure and how much you size the case.

I actually disagree and agree

Brass does indeed stretch after each firing but IME it will make the biggest change in length during the initial fireform.

Particularly in relation to the question question "Does brass stretch mostly during the first use?" which also stretching of the case body and not just the length.

To the OP you need to check your case length after each RESIZING and make sure it's less than the max length specified for that particular cartridge in the manual. If allowed to get too long it could begin to pose a safety risk

 

[A and O]

+1 Krochus

-1 Krochus California is not a state, it is a condition and it appears to be terminal.

 

[Remo-99]

These reloads use the minimum powder and only 147-grain bullets.

Trimming may not be needed with several reloadings on cases with moderate loads, but still cases should be measured to verify it.

Some instances were the case body expands outward during firing, the overall case length decreases slightly as the neck and shoulder are pulled back when the body ballons into a 'loose' chamber(with lower pressure loads, higher pressures just stretch and thin brass to suit). And if just the necks are sized, it can leave the case length a few thousands or so shorter.

 

[JimKirk]

This is the Lee manual trimmer, and sometimes it will not even go all the way into the case.

You may have to sand the shaft down a slight amount, put it in your drill and sand it with some fine emory cloth. Take the cutter off as the cloth will find it's way to the cutter and dull it.

Jimmy K

 

[1911Tuner]

Brass does indeed stretch after each firing but IME it will make the biggest change in length during the initial fireform.

Generally true, when firing new ammunition or on the first time for virgin brass in an off the shelf rifle. It depends mostly on the brass dimensions and the dynamic headspace in the rifle. Due to variations in the brass in a given rifle, the amount of stretch will vary from case to case.

By resizing the brass carefully, the amount of stretch can be limited greatly. Neck sizing offers the handloader can keep it to a bare minimum. If a full-length die is used, it can be adjusted to lightly kiss the case shoulder and set it back just enough to allow it to chamber with just a little effort. Careful! If the case requires too much pull on the bolt, it can fire the round while bolting the rifle. (Yeah. Ask me how I know that.) The goal is to have the round chamber with light resistance on the bolt, just a little over what it takes to turn it on an empty chamber. That means that rifle has a zero headspace condition with that cartridge.

Of course, semiauto rifles require a little headspace in order to reliably chamber the rounds, and the shoulder needs to be set back a little in lever-action rifles because they lack the powerful camming provided by a turnbolt.

 

[rattletrap1970]

It also depends on the chamber of the gun. Some chambers are just loose. The less form fitting the chambers are, the more the brass will stretch. It will basically stretch as much as their is room to. Firing brass in the same gun all the time and only neck sizing your brass will allow your brass to last a very long time and ultimately give you more accuracy because the brass doesn't have to stretch from a full length re-size to your chamber size every time you shoot (which will require you to length trim and lose brass, thereby making your brass thinner and weakening it, which also changes the inside volume, which changes your pressures). If you are going for the most accuracy and length of brass life do this (at lest for rifle):
1. Fire the brass the first time in the rifle that it will always be shot in.
2. Length trim to .010 short of max length.
3. Neck size only.
(If you really want to squeeze accuracy, outside neck turn at this point to true up neck thickness and runout.)
4. Load as usual.

 

[243winxb]

sometimes it will not even go all the way into the case.These reloads use the minimum powder

Light loads may not expand the necks fully on firing. If you insert a bullet into the fired case, you will find it to be snug. Up your powder charge.

 

[qajaq59]

3. Neck size only.

That works well in the bolt rifles. However with the lever, auto, and pump rifles you're kinda stuck with FL sizing.

 

[fguffey]

Bench 'resters' claim stretch ends after the third firing and a case is not formed until its 5th firing and someone says it must be full length sized to start over, in my opinion I believe they make a lot of this stuff up, how can you start over after firing a case 5 times, it has been fired 5 times, if the case has been fired in a 303 unlike my 303s, five times is 2 times too many, the Enfield 303 British bolt humps when fired because of the rear locking lugs, another disadvantage to case longevity is the case head spaces on the rim, not the shoulder so full length sizing should not be a consideration, when H&H built rifles with a belt whatever happen when chambering the rifle in front of the belt was of little concern, the same for the 303 British, they tied the case to the rear and let the case fill the chamber, there was an advantage to the balloon chamber, it reduced chamber pressure, the case expanding gave the pressure more time to build, in those days there was a limit on choices when selecting powder.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

and if after firing a case you find the bullet you are using for reloading is snug you want to make sure you are using the correct bullet as in a .308 bullet for a 30/06 not an 8 mm .323 bullet and make sure the neck is not to tight to release the bullet when fired, low pressure can cause the neck to turn black on the outside of the neck and in more severe situations the case to have black soot on the body of the case.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Benchresters are shooting tight necked chambers with brass sized the absolute bare minimum. Different ball game.

In standard chambers, and assuming full loads each time, the brass will stretch each time for several firings before slowing down considerably as it work hardens etc.

The first time is usually as much stretch as you will get in any one firing, and it slows down from there.

The last time I took a small batch (8) of cases (.223), loaded it up and shot it over and over, it stretched enough to warrant (IMHO) trimming the first 4 or 5 times. After that I trimmed every other firing through 11 or 12 firings. I lost one case to a loose primer pocket at the 9th or 10th firing.

This was one small set of cases in one caliber in one gun. AC

 

[fguffey]

and a man handed a custom builder a case and then said "The rifle you built for me has head space problems". The builder/friend of mine looked at the case and told him to bring the rifle in and he would check the rifle. (I did not get involved Until) they finished, then I asked to see the case, he handed me the case, after examining it I ask "Is this the only case you have" he did not understand the question then I ask him if he was reloading that one case over and over and over etc., I told him he should spread the work load over a couple of hundred cases instead of one case, the builder saw where this line of questioning was headed and ask the proud owner of the rifle to take the case to a third party without telling him what I said and do not tell him who built the rifle. He returned in about 30 minutes, he was not happy seems he got his feeling hurt, the third party asked him if that was the only case he had and was he firing it over and over, the third party tore the case apart and measured the thickness of the brass, after measuring the brass the proud owner was told .0025 was a good thickness for paper but way beyond usefulness for 35 Whelen cases. I offered to form 200 cases for him for free, he respectfully declined my offer and did not return the rifle.



I am sure cases can be fired 50+ times by bench resters with no ill effect to the case, as with lead and zinc, some reloaders declare an exception or immunity to the effect, my cases when fired stretch and or flow or both and my cases do not have an exemption when hammered with 55,000 psi +, anything caught between 55,00 psi and a wall that does not move gets crushed, again my cases are not exempt, my case walls get thinner with heavy loads, the brass stretches, flows or scoots.



If I claimed I fired a case 50 times I could tell you what it weighed in the beginning and what it weighed after firing it though the process and I would measure the thickness of the brass and the number of times a donut formed at the neck and if it required reaming and the diameter of the flash hole, case head and primer pocket, but I am not a bench rester, Dottie told some inquiring shooters at the range I was a crack shot.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Dottie told some inquiring shooters at the range I was a crack shot.

Crack shot, or crack pot?

Just kidding. I know Dottie wouldn't say that. Always fun reading your posts fguffey. Keep em coming. AC

 

[rcmodel]

Guys! He's asking about a .303 Enfield.

Of course it stretches every time it is fired.

The Smelly Enfield is one of the springiest actions around, with a very generous chamber, and nothing much you can do will keep it from stretching brass every time it is fired if you shoot normal pressure loads.

rc

 

[Hondo 60]

Brass does indeed stretch after each firing but IME it will make the biggest change in length during the initial fireform.

I haven't been reloading rifle very long, but in the 1000 or so that I've reloaded this appears to be true.

I have a few boxes that I've reloaded 5x & have found that I take more off of each case between firings 1 & 2 than the subsequent firings combined.

 

[Clark]

Brass gets shorter when fired.

But if some knuckle dragging handloader bumps the shell holder into the bottom of the full length sizer die [like I used to do], then the brass gets much longer.

If I use my old cave man reloading techniques, I might need to trim after one or two firings.
But lately I can get 25 firings between trimming, since I dusted off my Lee collet neck die.

How can you get out of the stone age?
Measure the length of your brass before firing.
Measure the length of your brass after firing.
Measure the length of your brass after resizing.
Adjust your dies away from the shell holder.
Measure the length of your brass before firing.
Measure the length of your brass after firing.
Measure the length of your brass after resizing.
Smack yourself on the head and repeat after me, "I have been SOOO stupid!!!"

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks very much for your info. The only sizing I've done is neck-sizing.

Tonight I broke the small handle/lever on my back-up 'Lee Auto-Prime', trying to get a primer into an old case. This has happened twice.
Yes, these cases are all single hole as with other Boxer types. Threw away the several Berdan cases.

I had bought a bag of old Greek HXP .303, RG and some other cases last winter from a guy. Many of these are nothing but problems and am going to give these (he claimed "once or twice-fired") fifty cases to whoever wants them in the Memphis area.

A week ago busted another deprimer spike on these. Fed up with them.
For the price of replacement deprimers and an auto-primer, a few boxes of Prvi would have been a much better investment.

 

[918v]

Generally true, when firing new ammunition or on the first time for virgin brass in an off the shelf rifle. It depends mostly on the brass dimensions and the dynamic headspace in the rifle. Due to variations in the brass in a given rifle, the amount of stretch will vary from case to case.

My Remmy 700 must be chambered on the short side because I can feel the boltface dragging on the casehead on a good 50% of the factory match ammo I run through it. The cases grow in length anywhere from .002" to .005" after the initial firing and sizing. They grow the same amount after each subsequent reload.

I size the brass in a Redding body die and a Lee collet neck die. Yeah, neck sizing only would prolong case life, but my boltface is not square. I'd rather sacrifice case life than tear into the rifle at this point. It shoots under .5 MOA with Hornady match ammo and my handloads.

 

[fguffey]

I am not much on repeating what I have read on the Internet, as I have said for most when the bolt closes the lights go out and the chamber gets dark, I check head space three different ways with out a go-gage.

Brass: When the case turns pink it has been left in the solution too long. Before the Internet I was told about the perils of shooting, cleaning and annealing brass so I decided to do something besides stair at it and wonder, if brass is brittle it will not stretch (far), if I want to test a 30/06 case I neck it up to 35 Whelen, if the neck rips I exceeded the necks ability to stretch, if I think the case is brittle because of my tacky ways of cleaning I turn a forming die upside down in the press and raise the ram with the case neck in the forming die, if the case is not brittle it will collapse like an accordion and form a bellows, a brittle' work harden case with collapse and or split, it could even start to form an accordion type fold.

When forming cases the largest number of failures come when necking up 280 to 35 Whelen when nickel cases are used, failure rate can be as high as 30% on once fired cases and not much better on new cases, when using brass, new or once fired I do not expect to lose a case to splitting. So if a case is compromised because of methods and techniques how would one go about testing? Me? I give the cases a work out to check the limits.

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

Headspace 101 for the .303.

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/3361/t/Headspace-101-for-303-s.html Good reading here. Some models of the 303 have interchangeable bolt heads to correct headspace problems.

 

[fguffey]

'says it must be full length sized to start over, in my opinion I believe they make a lot of this stuff up, how can you start over after firing a case 5 times, it has been fired 5 times, if the case has been fired in a 303 unlike my 303s, five times is 2 times too many, the Enfield 303 British bolt humps when fired because of the rear locking lugs.........''

The "hay guys" are aware the thread started out as '303', not all 303s are Enfields, I have two that have forward locking lugs, I had two more, now one is a 308 Norma Mag the other is a 30/06 complete with the red and white band around the stock at the receiver.

A good start when working with head space on the Enfield would be to measure the thickness of the rim, overlooked is the thickness of the case head, I have found factory case heads as thin as .140.

F. Guffey