Conspiracy, tin foil hats, and me.

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WVMountainBoy

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I run across a lot of things that are a turn off to the normal person on the net. Not often on this particular forum mind you (thats why I'm a member) but it seems there are some poorly worded arguements floating around and some things are often presented in ways that sound like out right lunacy. We all know that we need to be aware of our choices for leadership and that it is best to be proactive in securing our 2nd ammendment rights for future generations. Sometimes though it comes off as "Politician A is a martian with a hidden agenda to implant babies with microchips and bring about doomsday" We really have to avoid that.

I have two friends who are deathly afraid of guns, one due to an accident when she was very young that killed her older brother. She has no issue with gun ownership and even encourages her husband to hunt, but she has him leave his rifle at my place because she can't stomach it being in the house. An associate of ours once picked and ranted her into tears using insults and retoric untill we had to finally demand that he leave and not return. He was the exact reason some people come off as gun crazies. The other friend who has a fear of them is very similiar in that he doesn't personally like them, but supports ownership 100%. He even has a lifetime NRA membership, because he says they do so much for the hunting sports (avid bow hunter) These are deffinantly not the people we need to be harping at or alienating by talking about black helicopters taking our guns in the night. I often back out of threads/conversations/discussions the instant they go the way of the tin foil hat or go anti-LEO.

I don't want anyone to change their beliefs but perhaps not sound so CRAZY. Again this forum is VERY light on it, thus why I participate but I'm sure more than one of you can point out when things have gotten so far towards "the end is nigh" crowd that it would completely make "Non Gun Crowd" people call for mental hygeine. We're all used to it at some level and has participants in our interests those issues are the sum of all fears, but to outsiders, even moderate ones they do sound outlandish. They sound outlandish to some of our fellow gun owners who are a bit more moderate.

I don't want this to be a political thread, instead a general discourse about how to properly betray our ways in front of "non-gunners" or people who are on the fence. I know that my own experiances with the true shooting crowd where I live have been less than pleasurable. Thus why I do my shooting at a private range or on private property.

I don't know about you all, but usually the instant I hear someone say they have buried guns in the woods, start talking about KNOWING secrets they read about on the internet involving huge conspiracies, and start ranting about law enforcement in a detrimental mannor I generally dismiss the person's opinions as fancies of an unsound mind. I'm sure that even a lunatic is right 1 outta 100, but why chase the 99 fictions?

I'm sure we all know of at least one theory out there that has dark shadowy forces in the government plotting elaborate schemes to manipulate the system or us. Its all well and good to be suspicious and very good to ask questions. I'm not trying to pick any fights so I won't point out any one theory to stab at. I just want to point out that people should think about how they word their concerns so they don't sound like a talk radio nut job.

I doubt my little rant here will do any good, but maybe allow some others who have some similiar feelings to speak up. Again I'm not trying to call any theorists out on the carpet to prove their idea, I'm trying to say that maybe you shouldn't stand on a soap box and denounce the rest of the world as "Sheeple" who just don't see the TRUTH.
 
Some people are afraid of guns for reasons that can't be overcame and yelling at them or bombarding them with information won't change that. Gun owners to often avoid the use of finesse in these situations. I full-heartedly agree that it is our right to keep and bear arms and we shouldn't be forced to cow tow to anyone on that matter but that doesn't keep us from being respectful human beings. If someone is an anti trying to take our guns away then stand up for the 2A to them but if they are uncomfortable with guns but supportive of the 2A thank them for the support for god's sake don't force them into an uncomfortable situation.
 
The question I cannot keep myself from asking any given conspiracy nut is, "which one?". Take, for example, the JFK hit. Oswald did it, alone. That doesn't mean a lot of interesting funny business wasn't going on. It was. But it was still Oswald who tagged the guy.

How exactly do you tell the guy who has misspent years of his life "researching" how United 175 didn't divert into the Pentagon when not only did you fer chrissake watch it happen, but you happened to know, very affectionately, one of the passengers? You can't. Ignorance persists, much like a mould pattern sheltered beneath the rim of the toilet tank.
 
What you have to do is convince your friends that gun rights are for all Americans:scrutiny:

Show them this so they understand.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2180808/posts



Pres. Obama Invites Hamas Terrorists to America
The New Media Journal ^ | February 7, 2009 | Dr. Paul L. Williams

Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:05:33 PM by Technical Editor

Dr. Paul L. Williams Pres. Obama Invites Hamas Terrorists to America February 7, 2009

Bos Smith and Michael Travis contributed to the writing of this article.

By executive order, President Barack Obama has ordered the expenditure of $20.3 million in migration assistance to the Palestinian refugees and conflict victims in Gaza.

The "presidential determination" which allows hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with ties to Hamas to resettle in the United States was signed on January 27 and appeared in the Federal Register on February 4.

President Obama's decision, according to the Register, was necessitated by "the urgent refugee and migration needs" of the "victims."

Few on Capitol Hill took note that the order provides a free ticket replete with housing and food allowances to individuals who have displayed their overwhelming support of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in the parliamentary election of January 2006.

The charter for Hamas calls for the replacement of the nation of Israel with a Palestinian Islamic state.

Since its formation in 1994, Hamas has been responsible for hundreds of terrorist attacks, including the 2002 Passover suicide bombing. The leaders of the movement signed the World Islamic Statement of 1998 – a document, penned by Osama bin Laden, which declared war on America and Israel.

President Obama's executive order is expected to bring hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, many with ties to radical Islam, to our shores, furthering a process that was inaugurated in 1995 by Senator Ted Kennedy and the Cedar-Hart bill.
--------------

New neighbors deserve all the rights you have:what::D

jj
 
See, that post left a bad taste in my mouth. I can disagree with the expenses of taking on immigrants, but most people are going to have some compassion for people, especially families being relocated from a war torn area. The story as it is posted calls for us to assume that all of those immigrants are Hamas supporters. It calls for us to be suspicious of all muslims, or atleast thats the tone as I take it. Optimist or not, if you support the American ideals part of them are "Innocent until proven quilty"

I took the time to type all that, but I didn't really want to get sucked into any arguements with this.
 
Labeling something as a "conspiracy theory" as a way to shut down discussion doesn't accomplish anything. Well, not anything good. Many things labeled this way in the past are suddenly being announced by various governments who participated in such labeling and squelching of discussion.
I'll leave it at that. Just keep an open mind.
 
I don't know about you all, but usually the instant I hear someone say they have buried guns in the woods, start talking about KNOWING secrets they read about on the internet involving huge conspiracies,

Internet being the key word. Always have been and will be conspiracies, the net seems to perpetuate them as of late.

I agree with WVMOUNTAINBOY 100%
 
I used to laugh at tin-foil hat wearers and sometimes still do. However, small conspiracies abound so why not larger ones? Have you noticed on BATFE forms that it is not only a felony that can keep you from legally purchasing firearms but any crime that could have recieved a 2 year jail sentence even if you only got probation or a fine? Bounce a check over $20 in Vermont even once? 1 DUI in Mass? So a misdemeanor that no one ever gets jail time for is now the reason you fail the background check. That is a conspiracy between state and federal governments to allow a misdemeanor state law conviction to weigh as heavily as a federal offense, ie felony, and create one less legal gun-owner. If you violate a state misdemeanor law it should not under any circumstance effect your federal standing or background check. If the offense is that great it should be a felony. Period. I passed my background checks with confidence because I thought "I haven't been in jail" If I had known that people are actively trying to prevent me from buying I wouldn't have been so confident. Knowing what I know now, 1 in 6 Vermonters don't qualify, I'm surprised I passed. Now, Vermont is one of the safest and healthiest places in the country with very little gun crime and lax gun laws. So how can so many Vermonters be denied the right to keep and bear arms? 1 in 6 Vermonters convicted felons?
 
WVMountainBoy said:
...I have two friends who are deathly afraid of guns…

…I don't want anyone to change their beliefs but perhaps not sound so CRAZY.…
Since this part of your post has been glossed over I need to point out the fact, in case you didn't know it, being deathly afraid of inanimate objects IS CRAZY. Tell your friends to seek some counseling. And get some new friends who aren't crazy. Dumb, crazy people have been perpetuating some sort of agenda that guns are bad and anyone who likes gun is crazy and you seem to have been influenced by it yourself because you are afraid of sounding crazy. Don't be, we all have our hobbies.
 
So you're saying that calling something that sounds like a conspiracy theory is actually a conspiracy theory itself? That's funny...

I pretty much agree with the OP. If you want to sound like a moron, fine, but don't do it under the guise of being a spokesman for people with legitimate concerns.

JJ: That article is a complete bunch of BS. I read the EO and it doesn't say anything what the article states. This would be the stupid s*** that we don't want.

When speaking to others about our rights, just stick to the facts and truth. When you do that you can't go wrong.
 
ARlover: So you have a problem with people who can't seem to obey the law being restricted from gun ownership? I thought criminals were the exact people that we encourage our lawmakers to go after instead of our guns. Drunk driving IS a serious offense, and if you can't be responsible enough to follow that rule, then perhaps you're not capable of following OUR 4 rules either.
 
;)

I didn't really understand this post -- perhaps my tinfoil hat and special glasses are protecting me from evil brain waves....;)
 
WVMountainboy, you wrote:

"I don't want this to be a political thread, instead a general discourse about how to properly betray our ways in front of "non-gunners" or people who are on the fence."

Since this thread is about communication and not being misunderstood perhaps you may want to edit "betray" to "portray"? Or am I not getting it? Not being an arse, just trying to help you cover yours. Go Mountaineers (unless you cross paths with the Buckeyes).
 
The reasonable people will always be quickly surrounded by a huge lynch mob wearing foil hats.

This is a natural law of physics similar to gravity and magnetism.

Nothing will ever change it.
 
ARlover: So you have a problem with people who can't seem to obey the law being restricted from gun ownership? I thought criminals were the exact people that we encourage our lawmakers to go after instead of our guns. Drunk driving IS a serious offense, and if you can't be responsible enough to follow that rule, then perhaps you're not capable of following OUR 4 rules either.
__________________
Not at all. However if a crime is that serious make it a felony for the first offense. My point was only that it is not a good idea to have state and federal laws such that they can be manipulated by lawmakers to further an anti gun agenda. Yes a DUI is a very serious crime but the first one is a misdemeanor. Period. The antis could potentially write a clause into every and any misdemeanor law that says it could be punished by 2 years in jail eventhough they know it will never be prosecuted. You write no contest to a speeding ticket unaware it is written so it could carry a 2 year sentence and you have signed away your gun rights. So anyone that gets a misdemeanor, could be an innocent mistake or a serious offense like a DUI, and they have effectively rid the world of another gun owner. It is like owning a .50 cal. I see no reason why someone needs one and I don't want one but I don't support any laws restricting gun ownership of any sort. It is a right not a want or need. It is a slippery slope I'm not willing to walk on. Unfortunately the criminal does benefit at times in the fight to ensure our freedom and rights. That is better however than losing those freedoms and rights.
 
OP, you sound like you're stereotyping a bit. Not everyone who "buries guns" is a conspiracy theory tin foil hat crazy. They might just be prudent. Maybe they see some writing on the wall. It doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy involving all the world's powers secretly communicating with each other in a big organized plan. It might just be one little bill in Congress to simply register guns. That's only turning a pot from medium-low to medium. That's all. No conspiracy - beyond the Brady Bunch et al.

And not everyone who has a healthy distrust of authority is anti-LEO. Some people - like myself - see LEOs as individuals, no worse and no better. Good ones; bad ones and mostly, people with a little of both inside. Just like everybody else. But for the most part, well intentioned.

I agree that it's unconscionable to rant at the lady who is afraid of guns for her fear. As long as a person supports my second amendment right, and will not vote to take away my right, I fully respect their choice to not like guns personally. But if someone votes to remove MY right to self-protection, I see no reason to be "polite" and "respectful" at all. They are propagating evil - they would deny a helpless female the right to defend her life, and that is evil, pure and simple. Why should I be "nice" to evil?

But I do agree that ranting at them is usually counterproductive. If they're a rabid anti-gunner, then they're simply an enemy of mine - no talk at all is warranted. If they are the ignorant uninformed, then it's appropriate to befriend them, and very politely, gently, educate them about guns. They can often be brought around to see the light.

Under no circumstances should you berate someone who isn't into guns if they still support your right to have them. Although I do think it's extremely silly to fear guns just because someone in your past did something terrible with one. For one thing, by not having a gun in your house, you open yourself up to evil people doing terrible things to you, and how does that square with logic? Would your dead loved one want that? I think not. But some people are illogically emotional, go figure. It's their life. As long as they don't vote away MY rights, I'll be nice to them.
 
Threeband, I ain't read you since the "What caliber for MOA?" thread. Where in tarnation you been?

I don't want this to be a political thread, instead a general discourse about how to properly betray our ways in front of "non-gunners"

I work with mostly liberals and hippies--real hippies, the ones that don't shower often, don't wear deoderant, have dreadlocks or long hair, you know the type. Anyway, I try to nonchalantly mention guns or hunting every once in a while if the context is fitting. Over time I have earned many co-worker's respect due to my attitude, work ethic, loyalty, integrity, etc. I have even made a few shooting buddies in an unlikely place and trying to work on introducing a few more to the sport and mission.
 
Threeband, I ain't read you since the "What caliber for MOA?" thread. Where in tarnation you been?

Oh lord, not that thread!

"Now children, let this be an object lesson, to be careful what you post online. It never goes away, and can come back to haunt you."



To answer your question with a vaguely disturbing biblical quote:

I've been "...going to and fro, and patrolling the earth..."

To answer your question with a stupid rip-off from Groucho Marx:

I've been hunting MOAs in my pajamas...and how they keep getting in my pajamas is beyond me!

And to give you a straight answer,

I've been hanging out over at .us,
http://www.thehighroad.us/search.php?searchid=5192181

and here at .org
http://thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=5563021

and a bit here, at Maryland Shooters:
http://www.mdshooters.com/forum.php

and a little bit here, at WTA:
http://www.wethearmed.com/

And I check out a few other places too.

--------------------------

Anyway, I guess you missed my "Groundhog" thread.


-----------------------------
 
Yeah, it must have slipped through the cracks. Anyway, always enjoyed the humor and the off the wall logic.
 
I don't know about you all, but usually the instant I hear someone say they have buried guns in the woods, start talking about KNOWING secrets they read about on the internet involving huge conspiracies, and start ranting about law enforcement in a detrimental mannor I generally dismiss the person's opinions as fancies of an unsound mind.
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I have definitely met people that have seemed to have gone off the deep end but I also know many people that are positions to know things and when I say "things" I don't mean stuff they or I read on the internet. Keep in mind this forum is part of the internet.

Many, many of the police officers I know are concerned with the overall direction that the LE establishment (and the country as a whole) has taken. I almost went into criminal justice and had many college friends that went on to become cops and they could talk to you for hours about the problems they see. And believe me, these people are not "anti law enforcement". They are beat cops who don't like the way they see things going.

I'll just go ahead and say it....when Clinton provided massive amounts of federal funds in the mid 90s to states so they hire 10s of thousands of more police officers? That wasn't a good thing. And stating that as fact doesn't necessarily make someone "anti LE".

But I'm not totally disagreeing with the whole of your post. You definitely bring up some interesting points/issues worth considering...
 
Since this part of your post has been glossed over I need to point out the fact, in case you didn't know it, being deathly afraid of inanimate objects IS CRAZY. Tell your friends to seek some counseling. And get some new friends who aren't crazy. Dumb, crazy people have been perpetuating some sort of agenda that guns are bad and anyone who likes gun is crazy and you seem to have been influenced by it yourself because you are afraid of sounding crazy. Don't be, we all have our hobbies.

Interesting. So, two people who are actually advocating OTHERS ownership of firearms are CRAZY? He should "get new friends"?

Please, THAT'S CRAZY , in and of itself. They don't want to own a gun, themselves, but support the Second Amendment for everyone else. Sounds more like a choice was made, for whatever reason, and they are living that choice quietly. There are a lot of people here that should do the same thing.

We have the Right to vote, so refusing to exercise that right would subject them to the same loss of friendship, and accusations of lunacy? Hmmmmmm, maybe he has something there.:scrutiny:
 
JJ: That article is a complete bunch of BS. I read the EO and it doesn't say anything what the article states. This would be the stupid s*** that we don't want.

When speaking to others about our rights, just stick to the facts and truth. When you do that you can't go wrong.


I guess we better let others read it to Get to the truth. Comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte.:D

Federal Register: February 4, 2009 (Volume 74, Number 22)]
[Presidential Documents]
[Page 6115]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr04fe09-106]



Presidential Documents




[[Page 6115]]


Presidential Determination No. 2009-15 of January 27,
2009


Unexpected Urgent Refugee and Migration Needs
Related To Gaza

Memorandum for the Secretary of State

By the authority vested in me by the Constitution and
the laws of the United States, including section
2(c)(1) of the Migration and Refugee Assistance Act of
1962 (the ``Act''), as amended (22 U.S.C. 2601), I
hereby determine, pursuant to section 2(c)(1) of the
Act, that it is important to the national interest to
furnish assistance under the Act in an amount not to
exceed $20.3 million from the United States Emergency
Refugee and Migration Assistance Fund for the purpose
of meeting unexpected and urgent refugee and migration
needs, including by contributions to international,
governmental, and nongovernmental organizations and
payment of administrative expenses of Bureau of
Population, Refugees, and Migration of the Department
of State, related to humanitarian needs of Palestinian
refugees and conflict victims in Gaza.

You are authorized and directed to publish this
memorandum in the Federal Register.


(Presidential Sig.)

THE WHITE HOUSE,

Washington, January 27, 2009

[FR Doc. E9-2488
Filed 2-3-09; 8:45 am]

Billing code 4710-10-P
 
You do realize as legal residents they are allowed to buy guns don't you?? Yes this is about conspiricy and guns.

jj
 
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