Consultation on My Future Rifle Needs

[Doctor Suarez]

Hello all. I’m a relatively new gun owner who desperately wants to move on from pistols to rifles.

Here are the basics of the case:

-I live in California, and I’m staying here for the forseeable future.

-I live in a suburb of Los Angeles (specifically, the San Fernando Valley). I have a mountain range between me and the nasty bits, but I’m still part of the city. (This information will hopefully inform your opinions regarding my weaponry needs during civil unrest)

-I am definitely going to purchase a Remington 870 Express shotgun.

-I love shooting and train regularly, but I have limited access to skilled instruction.

So, here’s the deal:

I want to eventually purchase a 7.62x51 semi-automatic MBR, most likely a Fulton or LRB model M1A. This is a given. It would not be for home defense, but for the general principle of battle-rifle ownership. What is less obvious is what to do before then.

I understand that the best method is to begin with a .22 LR rifle. The only thing that scares me about this is that I want to have a good MBR and a heaping supply of milsurp ammunition for it while I am still able to aquire them, which may or may not be a limited time frame.

I am also interested in purchasing at least one rifle in an intermediate caliber, such as an SKS or SU-16 (.223). The problem with the SKS is that I have no idea where I can remove the cosmoline, since my backyard is my wife's pride and joy. (Also, I'm not even sure how to do it.)

I don't want to buy Ruger minis, since Bill Ruger is kind of a sellout and I don't want a natural 5-round weapon with crummy 10-round aftermarket mags.

Given my suburban situation (the other houses are closely packed, and I imagine even a 7.62 Russian will punch through multiple dwellings,) is an intermediate-caliber rifle useful at all? Would a .223 be better if I were to use 55gr ammunition that allegedly shatters when striking walls? Is the Remington 870 all I'll need for neighborhood work?

Is it terribly important to learn on a .22 before moving up, or would it be best to simply start on a major caliber? I read Boston's Gun Bible, so that urge to get the big rifle right away is pretty crushing.

Thank you very much for your time and support. If I have been unclear, I will do my best to elaborate wherever required.

PS: A bit farther along, I hope we can discuss my optics needs for said M1A…

 

[el44vaquero]

Mind as well get them now while you can. One thing is for certain, and that's the fact you'll have fun with them all.

Good luck and happy shooting.

 

[phoglund]

Given all of your comments I'd recomment the SKS now. The SKS is available now in large numbers and is inexpensive, durable, reasonably accurate, and fun to shoot. For "neighborhood work" you might only need the 870 but it would be better I think to have something like an SKS as an option. I'd say the 870 is superior inside the house and the SKS is superior outside the house. Assuming civil unrest you probably don't want the unrestfull to get within your household, you can keep them at a respectful distance with an SKS and enough practice. I suspect you don't really have to work up from a .22 if you don't want to. I personally really like .22 rifles and handguns and own several of each. I like them mainly because you can shoot all day for little money and less punishment. You won't find the SKS very harsh to shoot either. The current crop (Yugos) are pretty heavy rifles and don't push very hard. If you want to add a scope I advise a "Scout Mount" type from http://scoutscopes.com . I have one of their mounts and am very happy with it. It's sturdy, doesn't permanently modify the rifle and will not shift around like cover mounts. You also maintain an excellent field of view therefore increasing your situational awareness. This mount will cost almost half what the rifle did but considering the price of the rifle it's not a bad deal at all. By the way, you mention the ability of even 7.62 X 39 to punch through walls. This is indeed true. You should be aware that in a situation where you would need an SKS for self defense in an urban setting...you may want to punch through a few walls occasionally.

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Wow, that mount looks incredible.

Maybe I'll just save the .22 for when my as-yet unconceived children want to learn how to shoot....

Keep the answers coming, folks! You guys are the best...

 

[mrrev]

Yea, skip the 22.
I purshased one with the same intent as you, start with a small cal and build up. It took a month before I was paying California those 25 bucks again for the background check. Paid a pretty penny for that 10/22, which now sits at the back of the safe. As mentioned before SKS's are cheap, but buy ammo first, it has recently been hard to come up on that stuff....

 

[middy]

Personally, I'd pick up a Marlin 60 for about $125 and work on your riflemanship with cheap ammo while saving up for the M1A. Get an SKS in between if you think it will take you too long to raise the money for the M1A.

 

[Doctor Suarez]

It's not SOOO much about raising the money. I have amassed some savings that I want to split between mortgage and guns. I can pretty much buy what I need.

An important follow-up question:

I know a guy who can give me paid lessons in rifle marksmanship, but what books would you recommend to further the lessons along?

 

[Leif]

My amateur $0.02 on your options, as follows:

- get the .22. At $8-$10 per box of 500, it still beats the pants out of any other round for shooting in quantity and training.

- skip the SKS, get the M1A. The SKS is OK, some like them, some don't; I fell into the later category (very unergonomic rifle, not very accurate, etc.). For marksmanship training, I think an accurate .22 will be much better in the long run than an SKS of variable accuracy (some are, some aren't).

- put the SKS money toward a really nice .22, or skip the 870 Express and use the SKS money to get the higher-grade 870 Police or Wingmaster, or spend the SKS money on optics, reloading equipment, magazines, etc. for the M1A.

My amateur opinion, but if things are so out of hand you feel you need an SKS for "neighborhood work," you might as well use the M1A. Rarely are things that bad, though.

PS - I voted for the last option, but I still think that you should skip the SKS.

 

[taliv]

- skip the SKS, get the M1A. The SKS is OK, some like them, some don't; I fell into the later category (very unergonomic rifle, not very accurate, etc.). For marksmanship training, I think an accurate .22 will be much better in the long run than an SKS of variable accuracy (some are, some aren't).

+1 some people like SKS, some don't. but very very few people don't like M1As.

if you want to collect guns, get two M1As

learning on 22lr is, imho, for children. any adult should be able to learn on healthier rifle. granted, 22 is super-cheap to practice with, but just keep in mind what you're practicing. putting thousands of rounds through a 22 won't make you adept at handling your M1A when the zombies come over the mtn. the only way to learn to shoot your m1a is to shoot it.

"beware the man with only one rifle"

get the M1 and spend the rest of your budget on optics and ammo


as for good books, i don't know. most of the rifle books i have are oriented towards competitions of one format or another. they all address marksmanship of course, but i don't know that i'd recommend one over another. (e.g. David Tubb's _rifle shooter_) otoh you have books like cooper's _art of the rifle_

in any case, it would be hard to beat personal instruction

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Straight to the M1A, huh? Interesting.

Now, here's a follow-up. I want to learn on the iron sights, but I eventually want a nice piece of glass.

Particularly, I want a scope that I can use to estimate range on a target via the measurement of approx. 20 inches wide (the width of a human shoulder-span).

The one scope I know that does this is the Trijicon TA11E (the one geared for a .308), which of course means that I would have to get an ARMS mount on my receiver, which means I'd better get a Fulton rifle. If I were to use a long-eye relief scope, then I would probably be best suited by a Springfield Scout rifle.

Hence, my dilemma.

Which would you recommend? Is there a good piece of glass I'm not thinking of?

 

[Matt-man]

Books?! Go directly to the M14 (it's only an M1A if it's a Springfield). Find your nearest NRA high-power rifle club, and start shooting. I have found high-power competition to be an excellent way to learn marksmanship skills with a rifle, and most competitors are more than happy to show a new guy the ropes. Some clubs even have a "newbie day" in which newcomers are shown the basics and coached through their first match.

Edit: Here is a page that will help you find a club.

 

[Sunray]

"...since Bill Ruger is kind of a sellout..." He's been dead for quite some time now. Ruger is being run by MBA's. The best reason for not buying a Mini-anything is the excessive price for one and very poor accuracy. Ruger handguns are top notch though. Well, maybe not the .22 pistol, but I use a S&W M41.
"...Given my suburban situation..." It's more your Californian situation than anything else. Your State laws, despite Arny, will dictate what MBR you can buy. Mind you, SA Inc. does make CA legal rifles.
.223 will penetrate most walls depending on the bullet. So will 12 ga. buckshot and slugs.
You really need to decide what you want a long gun for. If you just want something to shoot, buy a CMP Garand. I have a real semi'd M-14 and an M-1. I like the M-14, but the Garand feels better. A CMP Garand will cost you a whole bunch less than any M1A. Jump the hoops and definitely shoot the matches, even if you don't have to.
The money you don't spend on a over priced Fulton re-built rifle you can spend on a good .22 and the 870.
"...it's only an M1A if it's a Springfield..." Yes, but it's not an M-14 either.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Adults can skip the .22, IMO, especially if you've already dealt with the flinchies in the course of your handgunnery.

If money is no object, go straight for the M1A, and back into the SKS. If money is a factor, get the SKS first.

 

[Bridger]

Skipping the .22 is nonsense. Flinch can happen to anyone, and it can happen with a .22 as well.

As Kim Du Toit likes to say, a .22 should be a household commodity. The ammo is so cheap you can build up a huge stockpile of it easily and shoot hundreds of rounds in a session.

Get the .22, the m1A, and the 870. Spend the rest on ammo and training.

Then when you go to the range, shoot 50-100 rounds through the .22, and however much you feel like through the rest. Consider the .22 a warm up rifle for practicing the fundamentals, maintaining those skills should you ever not be able to afford the others, and that sort of thing. If you develop a flinch, 25-50 rounds through the .22 as well as dry fire should help you cure that. My range routine always involves at least 50 rounds of .22, and I have noticed it helping my shooting across the board.

And remember, it's a household commodity! Plus it will put down zombies just fine

 

[Kaylee]

I'm on board with the ".22, then M1A" camp.

While it may be possible to skip the .22, I don't think it's advisable. I certainly don't think it's a "kids only" chambering either. The sheer economy of practicing with a .22 is hard to deny. I've heard of some folks practicing wind doping and all with it out to a hundred yards and more, but that much is beyond me.

That said, I don't think anything's ever done as much for my rifle shooting as sitting on a little dirt hill with a CZ 452 and a whole brick of .22, snapping off twigs and heads of grass and such.

 

[ECVMatt]

Hello Doc..

I would suggest getting a 10/22 and the M1A. The Ruger would allow you to get much needed practice and is a great gun to boot! You could put a set of William’s receiver sights on it if you wanted to get a sight picture similar to the M1A.

I have a Springfield Scout and it is great. It is super accurate and a very handy length. I am going up to the desert to shoot it today (in the rain). I have herd very good things about the LRB’s and Fulton’s. You might want to consider this bbl length.

I would skip the SKS. I have one now and it sits in the safe. It is a good rifle, but nothing compared to the M1A. They are so cheap they have no real resale value and although they shoot good the sights are so different from the M1A they don’t seem to be a good substitute for practice. I tried to sell my SKS at a hunting club meeting for 100 bucks, but by the time you transfer it you could be a new one. I guess it will keep setting in the safe.

Lastly, you should get up to Angeles Range. They have a great facility with lots of steel targets to shoot at. These are fun with the M1A because you can practice moving your elevation to get hits at longer ranges.

Hope this helps you out.

Matt

I guess that I sould add that I removed my forward scope mount. I can easily make hits out to 400 yards with the iron sights. That is pretty far when you think about it. I know it is no 1,000 yard sniper shooting, but when you think about trying to justify SD at 400 yards thing can get a bit tricky.

If I need to shoot further than 400 to 500 yards, I switch to my scoped bolt action, but it is no sniper rifle either and I am really not that confident much beyond 500 yards.

 

[taliv]

i didn't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with 22. i own plenty of them and shoot around 300-400 each time i go to the range. I did mention it was cheap in my first post. I know it's not kids-only. it's the best adult plinker and small game gun evar.

I only meant to say there's no reason to wait, and that while 22lr is a cheap way to learn marksmanship (i spent a good deal of my youth shooting bumblebees off clover in east TN) it's an illusion to think that proficiency operating your 22 translates to proficiency with your M1A.

Skipping the .22 is nonsense. Flinch can happen to anyone, and it can happen with a .22 as well.

that explains why army recruits spend a couple months of basic training shooting smallbore before they get to shoot a serious caliber... no wait...i guess it doesn't.

I've never heard anyone over the age of say, 10, who got a flinch from a 22.

 

[esldude]

Look some of us take years figuring out what we really want in a rifle. Only experience can asnwer for sure. The only cheap way to get rifle experience is a 22. Get one and use it. I started out with centefire rifles. When an adult went back to a 22 for the volumes of practice I could afford. It greatly improved my skills with all my centerfire rifles. Best decision I ever made about rifles.

Start with the 22, then go to the M1a or whatever you think you want at that point. You can learn trigger control, marksmanship, whether you want to use open sights or a scope all with a 22. Then maybe you will find you will get an AR-15 instead of an M1a(though I love the M1a and Garands). Or some other choice.

But with apparently little rifle experience, you cannot go wrong with a 22, and it will make subsequent decisions more informed. Doesn't have to be years. I would say six months if you shoot as often as you are describing. Then decide what is next.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

I've gotta join the camp of those recommending .22s. If one takes the time to learn with a good open sight .22, every skill transfers. Learn to hit your targets from all positions not just a bench.

Now, regarding which .22, I'd recommend, like many others here do, getting a CZ. I have a Ruger 10/22, but I think one might learn more from a better tool which I believe the CZ is.

There's no substitute for trigger time. So, for generally less than $16 per thousand rounds, a good .22 beats all.

 

[itgoesboom]

My $.02

Buy the M14/M1A (LRB) and a bunch of ammo (1,500+ rounds), and a few mags (atleast 5, preferably 10+).

Put this rifle back in the closet, and don't shoot it yet. Atleast you will have it, incase of emergency or if they try to ban them.

Purchase a Marlin or Savage .22lr and hit the range, work on your marksmanship.

Then take the M1A/M14 to the range and work on getting good with that.

After that, I would purchase the SKS and ammo. Ammo for the SKS isn't nearly as available as it usually is right now, due to Wolf supplying the new Iraqi Army, so you might as well wait to pick up the SKS when ammo is back to normal levels.

I think that you have the right idea though when it comes to which firearms to get. I think the value of the SKS is that it is inexpensive, reliable as can be and makes a great backup weapon in case your M14/M1A goes down.

I.G.B.

 

[Doctor Suarez]

I like that I'm hearing all these CZ recommendations. I was starting to fix on the 513. (If everything else is going to be semi-auto, I'd love to have at least one boltie. Plus, I have this habit of hitting a target, getting excited, and blasting off. Bolt action will help train me to make each shot its own event.)

Glass on the M1A is a real puzzler. Though, I suppose I can get an ARMS mount added later, so I might as well start with a stock iron sight rifle.

Also, someone mentioned that I should strongly consider the 18" barrelled M1A. That is in fact already my front-running choice.

As for the intermediate rifle, I just don't know what I'd need in my neighborhood. I feel like I want a caliber that can take down some sort of armed aggressor who's out in the streets. And, I guess, the 7.62 Russkie will overpenetrate anyway.

Does the M1A handle any .308 loads that are less likely to overpenetrate? I'll stock up on milsurp ball, but if I had a few primo bullets for the neighborhood, would the rifle handle them? (I know there's a difference between 7.62x51 and .308 Winchester. Does this come into play?)

Again, thanks. You guys continue to be the best.

 

[palerider1]

if you have the money (which it sounds like you do) buy an m1 garand, m1a1, colt .223, and a really nice one is the 1917 winchester enfield in 30-06.
that would be on my wish list. get a ruger 10/22 in stainless too.

 

[Draven32]

Hey Doc,

Start with an SKS- or come fire mine to even see if you're comfortable with one.

 

[Bridger]

i didn't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with 22. i own plenty of them and shoot around 300-400 each time i go to the range. I did mention it was cheap in my first post. I know it's not kids-only. it's the best adult plinker and small game gun evar.

I only meant to say there's no reason to wait, and that while 22lr is a cheap way to learn marksmanship (i spent a good deal of my youth shooting bumblebees off clover in east TN) it's an illusion to think that proficiency operating your 22 translates to proficiency with your M1A.



that explains why army recruits spend a couple months of basic training shooting smallbore before they get to shoot a serious caliber... no wait...i guess it doesn't.

I've never heard anyone over the age of say, 10, who got a flinch from a 22.

1) The fundamentals of marksmanship translate over. Manual of arms is a different story entirely, but shooting a .22 for cheap marksmanship practice is not going to ruin anyone's abilities with an m1a. I don't fumble mags and shoot inaccurately with my AR-15 just because I shoot a lot more through my lever action .22. But then I make sure I practice adequately with my "serious" rifle as well. I don't think anyone is saying that the manual of arms for a .22 will help one with the manual of arms for the M1A.

2)Armies did at one point use .22 trainers frequently, some ROTC units use them, and not being in the Air Force myself, but having encountered people who are/were apparently some Air Force qualifications are done on a reduced course with .22 rifles.

3) Just because a military, particularly the United States does not use .22 trainers en masse any more does not mean there is no value in it for a private citizen, which is what most of us here are. I'm sure all of us would love to have the budget options of the military to supply ammunition for our training needs. But alas, we do not have billions of dollars at our disposal, making the .22 long rifle the most economical choice when it comes to practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship.

4) Maybe flinch is the wrong word to use, but adults will certainly sometimes flinch, not necessarily because of recoil, but other issues like anticipating the shot, jerking the trigger, etc. A .22 can help with some of this, as well as extensive dry fire practice.

 

[ECVMatt]

Hey Doc,

You might want to look into Hornady TAP ammo for the neighboorhood type situations. It is good ammo and had received good reviews out of the M1A platform.


Go for the 18" bbl, you will be happy. I have shot both the full size and the 18 incher and notice no real difference in accuracy. I am not shooting with a scope, just the irons.

Matt