Contemplating Rifle build, caliber?

[Seamaster31]

I shoot benchrest. When I started, many moons ago, everybody shot either 222 or 222 Mag. I have not seen anything smaller than 6 mm on the line for a very long time. The 6 PPC is the king of the hill, but sometimes you will see a 6 BR being used. The fellows that win usually (almost always) shoot 6 PPC. I shoot 6 PPC, but I like the 6 BR for most of my informal range days or if we are shooting further than the 300 yard targets. The 6 BR is the "easy button" if all you are doing is screwing on a new barrel.

 

[Walkalong]

Boy's lets play nice!

Indeed.

 

[d2wing]

This is probably wrong but an old competitor told me he and his buddies shot .223 because it makes a smaller hole thus a smaller group. This is in short range matches where groups are one tiny hole. I have seen some targets. Again, I am no expert.

 

[Walkalong]

This is probably wrong but an old competitor told me he and his buddies shot .223 because it makes a smaller hole thus a smaller group. This is in short range matches where groups are one tiny hole. I have seen some targets. Again, I am no expert.

Groups aren't measured like that, caliber doesn't matter if shooting groups for size. They're measured center to center of the farthest holes.

 

[d2wing]

Groups aren't measured like that, caliber doesn't matter if shooting groups for size. They're measured center to center of the farthest holes.

Ok that makes sense. These guys must have their own game.

 

[JFrank]

Ok that makes sense. These guys must have their own game.

Short range score shooters take advantage of 30 cal , being a larger hole can make a 9 into a 10 by just breaking the line.

 

[Varminterror]

Groups aren't measured like that, caliber doesn't matter if shooting groups for size. They’re measured center to center of the farthest holes.

I think the games @kmw1954 is playing during his league matches are variable. Looks like he has some point targets based on line breaking, and if I’m not mistaken, he’s mentioned some hit/miss targets as well coming up in future courses of fire.

So a fatter line breaking caliber MIGHT have an ever-so-slight advantage… but we ARE only talking about making targets 19thou bigger by shooting a 6mm instead of 22cal.

 

[Varminterror]

the fact remains that the differences in accuracy potential INSIDE 300 is so small that any improvements going to a true benchrest round would be pure placebo at this point.

This OPINION being expressed here is not a fact.

Switching to a more manageable cartridge benefits the lesser shooter more than it benefits the top guys. Reducing wind drift sensitivity for a guy which is less skilled at reading wind makes life easier, increases point count, and reduces group size - which IS a defensible FACT demonstrated in competition and substantiated by ballistic science. Anyone doubting this can check out Litz’s WEZ tool.

In fact if he doesn't have the kinds of neck turning and measuring equipment some of these calibers require he could in fact hurt himself with a less accurate combo

I can’t fathom how any piece of this could be true, let alone the entirety. Throwing a bunch of buzzwords at it won’t make your gate-keeping rhetoric true. 6 BR doesn’t require neck turning unless he purposefully orders a tight necked chamber. Nor does 6 BRA, Dasher, or PPC. Many BR shooters do want tight necks, but the point shooting game the OP is shooting isn’t registered BR.

Further - There’s no difference here whether he’s shooting 6 BR or 223rem. If he orders a tight neck chamber, he’d need to neck turn accordingly. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t.

What are you gaining in exaggerating monsters under the bed just to convince a dude shooting in a local range league for fun that he shouldn’t waste time or money competing? He’s gonna shoot the league anyway, and has been for a couple of years already, so what are you gaining by lying to say he’ll have to neck turn to adopt 6 BR, when all he has to do is shoot Lapua brass in a “no turn neck” chamber, necked at .272”… If I live to be a thousand years old, I will never understand the purpose folks like this perceive in trying to convince people shooting sports are unattainable… but it’s certainly a trend among folks which seem to need some excuse as to why they aren’t brave enough to admit the real reason they won’t do it themselves. And I tend to make my position on excuses like that pretty publicly known:

 

[JFrank]

I’m told Benchrest guys cry about everything from a tricky wind to a nose itch so I may order this cup for myself.

 

[kmw1954]

One of this leagues 1st and last rules are NO CRYING!

Short range score shooters take advantage of 30 cal , being a larger hole can make a 9 into a 10 by just breaking the line.

At one time last year I thought about going to a 250 Savage load as it is again halfway between .243 and .264 but then at the same time we have a couple targets tat if there is a broken line on the 10 ring there is no bull awarded. So I guess it's a wash.

 

[kmw1954]

Now unfortunately here in the upper midwest there are no public long range facilities.There are a few private clubs but they are of the type that you need an invitation from Jesus and a declaration from the devil to get in. The closest to me is about 4hrs away. This range that I work PT at is owned by the State of Wisconsin, controled by the DNR and leased out to private management firm. Recently there has been talk of the parties involved to expand the range and incorporate a 600 or 1k yard range. They own the property to hold it. But this is getting off topic.

 

[JFrank]

One of this leagues 1st and last rules are NO CRYING!
That’s exactly the way it should be.
No Sniveling !!!

 

[kmw1954]

So just to clarify things at this time I am planning on staying with the Savage action and utilizing a prefit barrel from NSS. The next upgrade being to better glass more suitable to what I am trying to accomplish. Forgoing any fancy gunsmith work and custom reamers.

 

[Varminterror]

So just to clarify things at this time I am planning on staying with the Savage action and utilizing a prefit barrel from NSS. The next upgrade being to better glass more suitable to what I am trying to accomplish. Forgoing any fancy gunsmith work and custom reamers.

You can specify no turn neck chambers at Northland - or maybe better stated, you’d have to tell them if you wanted a tight neck.

4 hours is pretty common travel for 1000+ yard range access, and due to the nature of these facilities, they’re almost all private membership only. How far are Cascade, Columbus, and Lodi? I’ve shot Cascade, although I can’t see that they have a pro series match this season.

 

[kmw1954]

4 hours is pretty common travel for 1000+ yard range access, and due to the nature of these facilities, they’re almost all private membership only. How far are Cascade, Columbus, and Lodi? I’ve shot Cascade, although I can’t see that they have a pro series match this season.

Evidently my last reply didn't survive the upgrade. Best I remember.
I know about Lodi and have heard about Columbus. Never really checked into either though having done so now I thought that Lodi was up more towards LaCrosse. Columbus is only about 2.5/3hrs. and Lodi just a bit further. Cascade is the furthest. For now, not certain I am ready to compete at that level but it is something I would like to try.

 

[Varminterror]

not certain I am ready to compete at that level

If you were intrigued to shoot PRS, great, but it ain’t the only game. I just mention those groups as reference, since you mentioned there weren’t any places to go shoot LR up there. So many folks get turned off by the idea of membership only ranges, especially ranges with waitlists, but in most parts of the country, I’ve found I can connect shooters like you to match directors or shooters at those matches and figure out a way to get them SOME access, either guest passes, public weekend invitations, buddy-buddy come shoot on my private spot opportunities, etc. And all the better if you get hooked on LR shooting and start shooting PRS matches too.

If you want to shoot farther, want to network with some other LR guys or match directors, etc, reach out to those match directors and range owners, and see where a few connections can get you.

 

[Nature Boy]

It sounds like you’re settled on the 6BR. I think you’ll enjoy that cartridge. The 6BR and variants have become almost ubiquitous across most precision shooting disciplines including bench rest, PRS and mid range F Class. They are inherently accurate, easy to tune with decent barrel longevity.

Time to start making a shopping list.

If I were you I’d start looking now for Lapua 6BR cases and purchase 200 when you see them in stock. Likewise, be on the lookout for H4895, N135, N140 or Varget. All of those powers will have good accuracy potential. My favorite is H4895 but that powder has been virtually unobtainable for a couple of years.

I like Berger’s 108 BT Target bullets but with a straight 6BR I’d probably stick with their 105 VLDs.

When you get ready to order your barrel you’ll need to talk to James at NSS. He’s a good dude to discuss options with and he’ll tell you what he has in stock. When I ordered my .223 from him I also added go/no gages and an upgraded recoil lug.

As I mentioned earlier, you’ll need to swap out the bolt head for a standard (0.480”) right eject. They run between $50 and $80.

 

[kmw1954]

So unfortunately we just this new year lost another facility that was able to go out to 600yds. That private club was only about an hour away and they would have open public competitions Monthly and have open access one day per week. A few here may know the facility in Racine Wis. right on the lake shore or Lake Michigan.

Yes I am leaning towards the 6mm but my experience with the 223 is telling me to say put. Either way, moving to a more custom barrel would still be in my eyes and upgrade from where I am currently. Maybe a trigger upgrade as well. Somehow I seem to be finding more satisfaction with this gun after the past couple weeks and to be able to see how I am holding up against a few at my level that are shooting 6mm. I am still way behind the leaders!

As to PRS, because of physical limitations I think I would struggle to compete. Two legs that don't work so well. Climbing and running are out. Even long walks get difficult at times.

 

[Nature Boy]

To give you a comparison of what I found when upgrading from the stock .223 Savage 1:9 varmint barrel to the Shilen 1:7 select match barrel. Stock barrel on top.



Obviously the quality of the barrel will have an impact on accuracy potential but the biggest benefit to me was the ability to shoot the longer bullets with the appropriate chamber dimensions and twist rate.

A note on sticking with .223

After I had been shooting F Class matches for a while my son and daughter expressed an interest in trying it. I had already made high master shooting a custom .308 so I offered that to my daughter and set my son up with the aforementioned .223 Savage. I had just gotten my 6BRA so the timing worked out great.

As they improved (and both also made high master) I offered to have a custom rifle built to whatever caliber they wanted. They each chose to stick with the rifles they had in .308 and .223 respectively for very similar reasons.

My daughter got satisfaction shooting the heavier recoiling .308, occasionally beating the crusty seasoned F/TR competition, and the attention that accrued to her for doing so.

Likewise, my son also appreciated shooting his .223 Savage against all of these purpose build custom .308s, being competitive and winning a few matches.

So, I get where you’re coming from.

 

[kmw1954]

Thanks for that Nature Boy.

I really wish I was in a position to build both, the 223 and the 6BR. See what spring brings and if I get back to working PT 3 days per week.

 

[kmw1954]

This is a target I just shot yesterday @100yards from my Savage 223. This is 5 loads still using the same bullets but with some fresh Benchmark powder I was finally able to locate. It was the best powder that I could developed a load for with the 69gr 223 last year, then I about ran out and couldn't find any. Once again it looks like it produces better results tan the TAC or 2460 I have been using. Apologies for the glare.

 

[kmw1954]

Thanks for the likes,. I'm going to load up some more of these and shoot them again, see if it repeats and holds up.