Conversion vs. Dedicated Uper vs 22LR AR?

[Dr.Rob]

Given the price of a dedicated upper how many of you have purchased 22 LR AR's (or similar) instead of an upper?

Reason I ask is Model 1 sales wants nearly 6 bills for the upper I'd like and I can buy a NEW Colt/Umarex 22 for the same price.

Cenier is backed up, CMMG has had some bad reviews, there's another chromed and o-ringed model I'm forgetting.

The only thing that gives me pause about the Colt is magazine compatibility--can it use Black Dog magazines too?

 

[testosterone]

The "o ring one" is http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=122

They make a conversion and a dedicated upper.

I don't own either from any vendor, I have read nothing but positive reviews of the spikes tactical units and their primo customer service.

From what I gather, these are you choices.

1) A conversion. Plus side, this is the inexpensive way to go. Minus side, the rate of twist in a .223/5.56 barrel(typically 1 in 9 or therabouts) is poor for .22lr(typically 1 in 16). If you are looking for best accuracy possible with a wide range of ammo, a conversion is probably not best the way to go though its not to say you couldn't find a good round that gave you suitably excellent accuracy.

2) a dedicated upper. Plus side, its got a real .22lr barrel with proper twist, so accuracy is superior, and many can be purchased with "match grade" barrels for a little bit more. It also allows you to shoot your .22 with the same lower, so if you have an expensive replacement trigger or good trigger job, it stays the same between calibers(note, same benefit as option 1).

3) A dedicated rifle. Plus side, It's another complete gun in the safe! and you can never argue with the benefits of another gun.

 

[PT1911]

how bout the new smith and wesson 15-22?

It will be around 4-500 and actually built around the .22 cartridge. I am tempted...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Haven't seen a street price on S&W yet, Sig has a 556 in 22 cal, there's the Mp-5 looking one...

Just figured the Colt might be worth more in the long run and is readily available here. The question is does it take the same mags as Black Dog?

(If I JUST wanted a hi-cap 22 I could buy a 10/22 and some magazines.)

 

[m4geryACOG]

One other thing to keep in mind is fouling. After talking to someone recently who owned a conversion unit, he stated that the gas port fouled BADLY from .22LR ammo. Like, scrub-your-gas-tube-excessively-with-one-of-those-pipe-cleaners-all-the-way-to-the-bore fouled. He also said that you had to grease the chamber conversion to keep it from sticking in the chamber.
I personally would be hesitant to put a conversion unit in any rifle I might trust my life/my family's lives to.

One other thing to consider: there's a LONG travel distance before contacting rifling with the conversions, and your sights/optics probably won't be zero'd.

 

[EAJ]

Recent street prices on the M&P 15-22 have ranged between $375-$450, unlike the Colt which is much more expensive. More here if you are considering either one.

 

[wally]

I went with the Spike's Tactical -- web site said they test each one with "Federal Bulk Pack, straight from Wal*Mart". Haven't had a bobble yet -- nothing but bulk pack.

The price hurt initially, but I don't want a die-cast zinc or plastic AR-type lower for .22 only, I can put a real upper on my Spikes should the need arrive. I really enjoy plinking and at $16/550 Federal .22 vs. $300/1000 for Wolf .223 it didn't take long for the upper to "pay for itself". I could and do plink with my 10/22 but I like practice with the AR platform too.

I choose not to get the cheapest solution -- conversion kit, because POA/POI issues with .22LR vs .223 and potential fouling of the gas tube with crud and soft lead fragments from .22 ammo.

I might bite on one of the GSG AKs .22s if 25+ round mags are reasonably priced for it. The Black Dog 25 rounders for my Spike's have been perfect, and Midway has an inexpensive loading tool than makes filling them a breeze.

--wally.

 

[Zach S]

One reason dedicated uppers are so costly is the fact they're built with real AR parts. The only difference, as with other calibers, is the bbl and bolt.

Comparing a Colt/Uramex to a dedicated upper on standard lower is like comparing a GSG-5 real HK94. You're comparing pot metal and cheap plastic to real steel.

I can't comment on the Smith, as I haven't handled one.

AFAIK, both the Colt and Smith use proprietary magazines.

For $50-$100 more than the Colt/Uramex, you get a Spike's upper that doesn't feel like a toy, has great reviews, built by a company that folks speak highly of, and uses widely available magazines.

Edit: In all fairness, I own a GSG-5. I do think its a fun little plinker. But that doesn't change the fact that its made out of pot metal and cheap plastic. I doubt I would enjoy it as much as if I owned a HK94.

 

[inherentical]

Midway has an inexpensive loading tool than makes filling them a breeze.

Which one are you using? If I ever get my Spike's upper running I'd like to find a good loader for the magazines.

 

[possum]

the ciener is no longer carried by brownells for issues that customers have had with them. i have a cmmg that runs great with winchester ammo (more specifically the 333rd value packs.) but not with remington at all. it might go 3 rounds max without a faliure to feed. and it isn't the magazines, i know it is the ammo.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've been very happy with my Model 1 Sales .22LR upper. No regrets. Shoots well, feeds well, easy to clean, fun to shoot.

Of course, I bought it before S&W, Colt, et al. offered complete .22 ARs in the same price range.

HOWEVER... The advantage of an upper, as I see it, is that you can shoot a gun that really feels exactly like your regular AR, with the same stock, same trigger, etc. If you are into overpriced (but nice) upgrades, it matters even more. Of course, some people spend more on a trigger and stock than the .22 upper costs.

 

[wally]

If I ever get my Spike's upper running I'd like to find a good loader for the magazines

I use this one:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=866140
About $10, they also have pretty good prices on the Black Dog mags as well.

Why is yours not running? I have had zero issues, haven't cleaned it yet other than running a boresnake through it before returning it to the safe. Even the cheap lead Federal Champion has worked great, I have so much of it from when Academy was selling it for $9/500 that I tried even though Spikes recommends using only plated .22 ammo.

The noise of a .223 or 7.62x39 is too much for my wife (flinch city), but she enjoyed plinking with the Spike's .22 last Sunday.

--wally.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

To me personally, a dedicated upper (1 in 16" twist) makes no sense at all, as it cannot do anything another .22 can't do.

A conversion kit, OTOH, can do something very different from what any other old .22 or a dedicated upper can do - that is, accurately shoot Aguila SSS ammo.

 

[hso]

Have the CZ upper on my daughter's rifle and it works fine.

 

[wally]

a dedicated upper (1 in 16" twist) makes no sense at all, as it cannot do anything another .22 can't do.

Except handle the same and have the same trigger as your center fire AR.

Aguila SSS ammo

See comments above about .22LR shaving lead and fouling gas tubes in ARs with .22 conversions. I don't see the attraction of 60 gr ~1000fps loading unless you've spent the money on a suppressor, in which case I'd be a lot more interested in a 9mm upper shooting 147gr sub-sonic ammo.

How do you plan to deal with the POA/POI differences between the .223 and the .22 conversion? All things considered, this was the dominant factor as to why I went dedicated upper instead of conversion.

--wally.

 

[inherentical]

Why is yours not running? I have had zero issues, haven't cleaned it yet other than running a boresnake through it before returning it to the safe. Even the cheap lead Federal Champion has worked great, I have so much of it from when Academy was selling it for $9/500 that I tried even though Spikes recommends using only plated .22 ammo.

First it wouldn't feed, so I took it apart and polished the edges of the chamber and feed ramp, along with chamber itself. I took special care to polish the top of the chamber where the round feeds in with Q-Tips and jeweler's rouge. Then I needed to change the trigger, since I had a RRA NM trigger in the lower. Lucky for me I had a few spare LPKs laying around. I also threw in a JP spring kit. Now the ejected casing is getting stuck in the top, so I bought several recoil springs to experiment with. I'll have to trim off a few coils at a time until it starts running. I've enjoyed tinkering with it, but I definitely wouldn't recommend one to someone who expects it to run out of the box.

 

[wally]

Bummer, I would have sent it back for repair, they claim to test fire each one with Federal Bulk Pack so the complete uppers should be expected to work out of the box -- at least with that ammo.

--wally.

 

[Dr.Rob]

One reason dedicated uppers are so costly is the fact they're built with real AR parts. The only difference, as with other calibers, is the bbl and bolt.

See this is my point... Model 1 sales CAR and XM177 uppers are $330-360 in 5.56 but $490-525 in 22LR. Granted you get a bolt carrier and charging handle with a 22LR.

A complete kit (sans stripped lower) can be had in 5.56 for $520 or $595 in 22LR. So 'building' a dedicated 22LR AR is more expensive than buying a Colt/Umarex or a S&W.

For the price of Justin's Upper I could buy FOUR Ruger 10/22's.

Maybe I should just get a Ciener kit for my 223 AK instead?

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Wally, I'm glad you asked!

"a dedicated upper (1 in 16" twist) makes no sense at all, as it cannot do anything another .22 can't do. "

Except handle the same and have the same trigger as your center fire AR.

But I still get all the same benefits as the dedicated upper guys (same ergos/manual of arms), PLUS another benefit as I mentioned. The .22 conversion kit will shoot BOTH regular ammo and the Aguila SSS. Two advantages is better than one advantage.

Quote:
Aguila SSS ammo.

See comments above about .22LR shaving lead and fouling gas tubes in ARs with .22 conversions.

I don't care if the foul the gas tube because I have a DEDICATED AR15 solely for the conversion kit. Don't even need a gas tube - it could get plugged completely for all I care. [Note to self: What would happen if you shot it without the gas tube installed?]

I don't see the attraction of 60 gr ~1000fps loading unless you've spent the money on a suppressor,

Ahh, but I AM going to spend the money on a suppressor (and recommend you do too). And even without the suppressor, the benefit is insane penetration / SD compared to a .22 bullet half it's weight. Not to mention nearly twice the muzzle energy. Also better BC for a little less drop at distance.

in which case I'd be a lot more interested in a 9mm upper shooting 147gr sub-sonic ammo.

Not me. The .22 is (a) Quieter, (b) cheaper to shoot, (c) cheaper to get the rifle/upper for (I think), and (d) cheaper to get the suppressor for, and (e) arguably more fun.

How do you plan to deal with the POA/POI differences between the .223 and the .22 conversion?

I don't - see above. I have an AR15 which is dedicated solely to the conversion.


YMMV

 

[wally]

I don't care if the foul the gas tube because I have a DEDICATED AR15 solely for the conversion kit. Don't even need a gas tube

Then the conversion kit vs. .22 upper debate is moot as you've created one with the conversion kit!

I reload hard cast lead 147gr 9mm so its cheaper for me than buying specialty .22 ammo

I've been thinking about a suppressor too, but probably will go with a SBR first.

--wally.

 

[ArmedBear]

Model 1 sales CAR and XM177 uppers are $330-360 in 5.56 but $490-525 in 22LR. Granted you get a bolt carrier and charging handle with a 22LR.

Compare apples with apples.

$330+120=$450 with the bolt carrier and charging handle.

Now, you also get a magazine with the .22LR upper, and the .22 magazines are more expensive than the regular NATO mags.

So you're dealing with prices that are VERY close ($490 w/ special mag vs. $450 w/ no mag).

Now, what do you think is cheaper and easier to get? A regular 5.56 bolt assembly, or the special .22LR assembly? What about the 5.56 barrel vs. the .22LR barrel?

5.56 parts are high-volume items, their .22LR equivalents are not.

So, a more apt comparison would be with a 6.8, which also requires a low-production barrel and a special bolt.

The basic CAR upper from Model 1 in 6.8 is $535, again without a magazine.

So, the .22LR upper for $490 with a magazine really isn't out of line at all.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Then the conversion kit vs. .22 upper debate is moot as you've created one with the conversion kit!

Well, sort of - that's correct, I've created one with a 1 in 9" twist that shoots quite well for *about* the same price as these guys dropping money on a 1 in 16" upper.

(Pssst: Hint: Marlin 60s are about $125, guys - they also have your coveted 1 in 16 twist, and give you a lower line of sight and the same accuracy! ).

 

[ArmedBear]

(Pssst: Hint: Marlin 60s are about $125, guys - they also have your coveted 1 in 16 twist, and give you a lower line of sight and the same accuracy! ).

Possibly better accuracy, and the lower line of sight matters a lot if you're shooting ground squirrels with a scope.

If you want a .22, I'd say, definitely get a Marlin 60 instead of messing with the AR.

The .22 AR is suboptimal at best in the field.

It's a training/practice gun, or an expensive toy. And it's great for either. I also really enjoyed mine when I lived a few minutes from a small indoor range, open at night, where membership included unlimited shooting time, but I had to drive a half-hour and pay good money to shoot a "real" rifle.

But I wouldn't get one as "my .22".

 

[bglz42]

Try a conversion. Mine runs great, shoots as accurately as I can hold with open sights, doesn't foul anything or shave anything. POI is the same out to 50 yards. I shoot it in .22 plate competition against some pretty trick 10/22's and hold my own. Added benefit: I shoot my conversion in my HD carbine. Muscle memory and sight familiarity makes my carbine feel awful comfy in my hands.

I have shot over 500 rounds in one day, in competition, and didn't have a single malfunction. Ran a mag of .223 through it afterwards. No problem with fouled tube. Cleaned it normally afterwards.

 

[gga357]

My only experience with a buddies colt 22AR and my only complaint is the loooong mag. Almost can't sit at a bench and shoot.