Converting cheap factory .223 to flat-points

[Hostile Amish]

I have a lot of factory .223 ammunition, and I was wondering whether I could convert the pointy FMJ to flat-points. My impression is it will give better expansion than regular spitzer, but would this slight shortening give me any feeding problems or cause the rifle to have any problems? I have a S&W M&P AR-15 and a Browning A-bolt. Sorry if this is a stupid question, I am new to meddling with ammo.

 

[Walkalong]

Sure, you could do it, but I doubt it would have any better terminal performance than FMJ, and may cause feed problems.

 

[mgregg85]

I've heard of people flipping open base FMJ bullets around and recrimping them to make a kind of crappy soft point.

 

[rbernie]

I've heard of people flipping open base FMJ bullets around and recrimping them to make a kind of crappy soft point.

Doesn't work; the bullets tumble almost immediately and keyhole.

 

[RidgwayCO]

There used to be a company named "The Hanned Line" that made a die they called the "Convert-A-Ball". You put your military FMJ round into the die, and then used a hacksaw to cut off the tip. It supposedly worked well, with increased expansion and accuracy (but they're out of business now, so it could very well have just been hype). You might be able to find one online.

I've got a couple of their SGB (small game bullet) tools, where you file off the tips of .22 LR or .22 WMR rounds, giving the bullet a flat meplat. They work very well for their intended purpose (increased accuracy and knockdown power for small varmints).

 

[NCsmitty]

Removing the tips of FMJ bullets can produce a situation that can spit the lead core out and leave the jacket in the bore and the next shot....... I think you get the picture.
Even slits in the tips,(the old dum-dum bullets) can cause these problems.
It's not recommended but it's your choice.

NCsmitty

 

[jjohnson]

It Depends.

Well....

I've heard of people flipping open base FMJ bullets around and recrimping them to make a kind of crappy soft point. (response):
Doesn't work; the bullets tumble almost immediately and keyhole.

Well, okay, now that certainly covers the question of accuracy.

However.... if you were a mall ninja and wanted to spray an area up and close, you just might get better short range tissue damage from tumbling bullets.

I recall reading the annals of an Army officer in Vietnam; he claimed that is was fairly routine for experienced troops, when shooting at an enemy in the open and on packed dirt, to shoot LOW so the ricochets would tumble into the happless targets.

I don't have enough imagination to make that up.

I'd expect using a die to hold the bullet and filing or grinding the tip would, in fact, give you a 'flat softpoint' on anything that has a lead core. Not really accuracy promoting, not cost effective, but it should work.

 

[rcmodel]

Actually, as NCsmitty said, it is very unsafe, and should not be done.

All FMJ bullets are open at the base and closed at the tip.

All SP or HP bullets are open at the nose and closed at the base.

If you file off the tip of a FMJ, it is open at both ends, and you basically have a copper tube with a loose lead core in it.

It is very possible for the lead core to blow out and leave the jacket stuck in the barrel.

Don't do it!

Besides, the FMJ jacket is so thick in the nose section, they won't expand anyway!

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Even slits in the tips,(the old dum-dum bullets)

The old dum-dum bullets were softnoses. The British found the .303 round didn't "stop" men (and dangerous animals) like the old .577-450 blackpowder load. They turned the problem over to the arsenal wallahs at Dum-Dum Arsenal in India, and Captain Bertie Davies developed the softnose, forever known as a "dum-dum."

 

[sqlbullet]

There was a very interesting article in the November 2008 issue of Handloader. The article "Does it Matter" by Chub Eastman dealt with bullet deformation and accuracy. They deformed the bullets by smashing the tip, grinding the tip to an angle, notching a single groove in the base and loading bullets backwards.

The results? The only deformation that had a measurable statistical impact on the precision of the bullet was the notch in the base. They hypothesized that this was due to uneven pressure release when the bullet left the bore cause it to be pushed away from the notch.

The reverse loaded bullets impacted lower at 100 yards by an inch or two (I don't remember for sure). This was attributed to using a powder charge reduced by 1 grain since the case volume was impacted by having more bullet in the case. These loads were just as precise (group size < 1") just not shooting to the same POI.

They started, however, with soft point .308 bullets, so core seperation was not a concern. If using open-base bullets, any changes to the jacket would be inadvisable.

 

[gdcpony]

If you value your gun don't do it!!! I know safety pleas don't work, so let me say this. A Marine did this in training. He is now out due to the injuries. He had to pay for the weapon!. The jacket was still in the barrel and the next shot ran into it.
Use good shooting to compensate if you must or go buy some SP's. You can load good premium bullets yourself for the price of factory FMJ loads. Hard to reload a new face and a gun is very expensive too.

 

[NCsmitty]

The old dum-dum bullets were softnoses.

Your right of course Vern, I should have said dum-dum style. They used to use their bayonets or pocket knives to X the soft nose for theoretical faster expansion. The practice of using softnose was outlawed by the Geneva Convention, I do believe.
The same can be done to a FMJ but it takes a hack saw or a narrow grinder blade to slit the tip.
Some people still do dumb things.

NCsmitty

 

[ants]

On the subject of expansion:

Bullet expansion is controlled by the construction of the jacket, thus manufacturers use copper-to-lead ratio as one criterion in bullet design. Simply cutting the nose off won't make an fmj expand much better, since you didn't change the thickness of the jacket (as rc model mentioned), nor the ratio of core to jacket, nor the shape of the base, nor the alloy of the lead core, nor the bonding of the core to the jacket, all of which are criteria for bullet expansion upon impact.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Let's face it -- fiction writers aside, you can't make a good expanding bullet from an FMJ.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Depending on the bullet and the length of your barrel (thus velocity):

Some FMJ ammo is intended to wound via fragmentation.

You could check out the ammo oracle on AR15.com. I think there is a reference there that outlines the velocity at which particular FMJ ammo will fragment.


Some of it also has to do with twist rate, hence RPM of the bullet.


As for filing the tips off of your bullets. Don't do it. Questionable improvement. Possible danger. Not worth it.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Depending on the bullet and the length of your barrel (thus velocity):

Some FMJ ammo is intended to wound via fragmentation.

You could check out the ammo oracle on AR15.com. I think there is a reference there that outlines the velocity at which particular FMJ ammo will fragment.


Some of it also has to do with twist rate, hence RPM of the bullet.


As for filing the tips off of your bullets. Don't do it. Questionable improvement. Possible danger. Not worth it.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Depending on the bullet and the length of your barrel (thus velocity):

Some FMJ ammo is intended to wound via fragmentation.

You could check out the ammo oracle on AR15.com. I think there is a reference there that outlines the velocity at which particular FMJ ammo will fragment.


Some of it also has to do with twist rate, hence RPM of the bullet.


As for filing the tips off of your bullets. Don't do it. Questionable improvement. Possible danger. Not worth it.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Depending on the bullet and the length of your barrel (thus velocity):

Some FMJ ammo is intended to wound via fragmentation.

You could check out the ammo oracle on AR15.com. I think there is a reference there that outlines the velocity at which particular FMJ ammo will fragment.


Some of it also has to do with twist rate, hence RPM of the bullet.


As for filing the tips off of your bullets. Don't do it. Questionable improvement. Possible danger. Not worth it.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Might try a hollow pointer from Forster. I have used them on round nosed stuff but I dont know if you coudl drill one centered on the FMJ tip.

 

[bullseye308]

Just pull the bullet and replace it with a soft point of the same weight. It will be close enough and the bearing surface will be close enough that it should do you just fine. Unless you plan on doing this with all of it for something like pdog shooting, how many rounds are you thinking about doing?

 

[jjohnson]

Exposed Base?

Actually, as NCsmitty said, it is very unsafe, and should not be done.

All FMJ bullets are open at the base and closed at the tip.

No kidding? ALL?

Okay, I didn't know that's true. I'm gonna have to look at my stock of FMJs. I'd noticed that some of them are open at the base, but didn't know ALL of them were.

I agree, if true, blowing the lead out of the tube and leaving the tube inside your barrel as an obstruction for the next round would be a bad thing.

I guess that's one of the important but sometimes subtle value of this forum. every now and then somebody gets here with something that sounds like a good idea - and turns out that it's dangerous and should be discouraged for that reason. I appreciate that sort of information - I'm rather fond of both my eyes, all my fingers, and most of my firearms.

 

[Clark]

There is also a lightning danger from going outside.
Do not go outside, it is dangerous.

What does it all mean?
If you can't quantify a risk, it has no meaning.
That's like Ayooob and the "don't carry handloads".
Anyone can raise a meaningless caution.

 

[rcmodel]

No kidding? ALL?
Okay, I didn't know that's true. I'm gonna have to look at my stock of FMJs.

Yes all.
(With the lone exception of plated jacket bullets at least.)

Consider how a conventional jacketed bullet has to be made.

You start with a "cup" or formed cylindrical copper jacket. Then a lead wire "core" is dropped inside the cup.

Then, the cup & core are swaged together into the shape of a bullet in a forming die.

Thus, if the "cup" opening is on the front, you have a SP or HP bullet, with the bottom of the cup forming the base of the bullet.

But if the cup opening is on the bottom, you have a FMJ with the bottom of the cup forming the nose of the bullet.

Some types of military FMJ bullets may have the base closed with a copper disk that is held in place by the swaged mouth of the cup.
But for all practical purposes, the bullet cup is still open on the base. You just can't see the lead core because the copper disk is in the way.

rc