converting rolling block to muzzleloader

[lansdale]

Hi everyone,

i own an old swedish rolling block that was "modified" by the swedes to use as a shotgun.
the barrel is .58 cal with straight rifling, and the camber is 28 gauge shotgun shell.

ofcourse using it as a shotgun isnt a problem, if it weren't for the fact i cant use it like that because in holland one needs a gun license to buy and posess the ammo. getting the ammo for this one is a pain in the butt, no one sells 28 gauge blackpowder shotshells, and to make them myself i'd need a license for the shells and primers. but they wont give me that unless i join a clay pigeon range where blackpowder is allowed to use. i'd have to be a member for a whole year before i can apply for the license. closest range is about 150 kilometers and very expensive.

to be able to use my rolling block on the normal shooting range i'm a member of i'd like to convert it to a muzzleloader. blackpowder, round lead balls and percussion caps dont require a gun license here.

now my question is: is it possible to convert a rolling block to muzzleloader?

my idea was to make some kind of breech plug in a lathe.
shaped like the bottom half of a 28 gauge shotshell, but with a percussion chimney in a deep recess, instead of a primer.

would this work? or would the gasses leak past this "cartridge"?
if it would leak, would it be better to make the cartridge longer so the powdercharge is inside the "cartridge"?
(this way i could load the cartridge with powder and a wad on top to prevent it from falling out, insert into the chamber, and then insert the ball from the end of the barrel ramming it home onto the cartridge)

i know this all might sound a little stupid for people in countries where it's easier to get rifles and ammo, but i hope someone can give me some advice on this as i hate to see my rolling block standing in the corner as a useless piece of metal because of stupid laws here.

if the cartridge idea is impossible i'd have to make a solid breechplug...which would mean it would never be able to use shotshells in the future

 

[rcmodel]

You will have to use some sort of cartridge in the chamber to seal it under pressure.
Thats what a cartridge does.
The loose gap in the rolling block without the cartridge seal would allow hot powder gas to leak out in all directions.

Look on this page at the Maynard, Smith, and Burnside gas seal cartridge heads which might give you some ideas.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_101_287

A gunsmith or machinest could make you some in 28 ga out of brass or steel, with perhaps a couple of Hi-Temp rubber O-rings to help seal it off against the chamber walls.
Think Space Shuttle solid rocket boosters.

Failing that, you would have to thread the chamber for a breech-plug & nipple, and then somehow convert the firing pin to work with the nipple & percussion cap.

rc

 

[TheRodDoc]

Couldn't you just cut the top folds off of plastic hulls, put in a new shotgun primer, load hull in gun. Then load the rest of the shell from the muzzle.

reload is just another primed case then finish loading from the muzzle and etc.

 

[junkman_01]

This is what lansdale said...."and to make them myself i'd need a license for the shells and primers. but they wont give me that unless i join a clay pigeon range where blackpowder is allowed to use. i'd have to be a member for a whole year before i can apply for the license."

It makes it difficult for him to even think about shotshell components.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I think there may be a few ways to approach this.

One involves manufacturing/machining a threaded breech block that takes up the chamber, that has a nipple in the base at the correct depth to be struck by the firing pin. It would have to be such that it just has a powder chamber and no mouth for a ball to be inserted. (so that it can't be classed as a cartridge) The firing pin may have to be replaced with one that has a wider striking area.

an other way would be messier, but involves using a breech plug with a hole in the center and replacing the firing pin in the breech block with a percussion nipple so the ignition is directed at the hole in the center of the breech plug. This would be similar to the operation of some Maynard actions I have examined. (not that it breaks open but that the nipple is in the place of the firing pin and utilizes a hole in the center of the breech plug, kind of like a touch hole in a flint rifle. )

Third he could see about making a knock out breech plug like the NEF Hunstman uses, but instead of using a 209 primer use a percussion cap in a sealed ignition chamber like the heavy bench rest shooters use.

 

[BADUNAME47]

Save yourself a lot of trouble-simply trade your Rolling Block for replica muzzleloader. I am sure that there is a gun shop or two in Holland.

What is the "Best" replica muzzleloader. IN my book it is the P-58 Enfield Naval Rifle in .577 caliber. They have been manufactured by Parker-Hale, Euroarms, Armi-Sport and now even Pedersoli is carrying them in their catalog!

Shoot it with a Minie Ball (what it was designed to shoot) and not round balls. I am sure you will be much happier with that than "converting" your Rolling Block. With a full power load and a Minie Ball, a Naval Rifle can easily hit targets as far out as 600 Meters IF you do your part! With target charges, they are fun to shoot at 50 Meter ranges!

 

[arcticap]

I agree. It's not worth doing it, just trade it in.

 

[Jim K]

If I understand correctly, the problem is not that the gun can't legally be fired, but that he can't obtain the ammunition. As I understand, the gun does not have to be permanently converted to a muzzle loader. If it is legal to do it that way, I don't see any reason why a steel or brass shell with threads at the rear for a nipple can't be made on a lathe.

I suggest a two piece design so the cap can be loaded, then the base screwed on to tightly surround the cap. Otherwise, the cap will just split and be a problem in loading. Once the concept is tested and one shell made, it should be easy to make more as required.

Reloadable shot shells of exactly that type were made in the 19th century when powder and caps were widely available but factory made shotshells were expensive and hard to find in some areas.

The rolling block action or firing pin should not need any modification.

Jim

 

[lansdale]

unfortunately getting a replica muzzleloader is just as difficult here.
the only stuff we can legally buy/own are:

-all firearms made before 1870
-blackpowder revolvers made before 1945, excluding center fire and .22lr
-blackpowder rifles made before 1945, excluding .22lr
-blackpowder pistols made before 1945, excluding .22lr
-blackpowder
-percussion caps
-round lead balls

we're allowed to have shells that have been fired, but only for collections.

so basically the only useable stuff are antique cap 'n ball revolvers, and muskets.


Jim, your idea sounds good. i have a friend who could make something like that and if it only contains the powder it wouldnt classify as a cartridge i guess. i'll give it a try and make a drawing of it which i can show the "gun law" police officers in my city to see if they think it's legal.
only thing i'm a little concerned about is the firing pin.
could i use the standard centerfire firing pin or would it perforate the percussion cap?

thanks for all the help guys.

 

[StrawHat]

One of the Italian clone makers did just what you are asking about. I believe they threaded the breech for a plug and modified the hammer to hit the cap. So, yes, it can be done. You would need a nipple to fit the caps available in Holland. You mention a lathe, are you doing the work yourself? If so, that would be the least expensive route.

Good luck, I am interested in the outcome.

 

[junkman_01]

lansdale,

This project sounds very interesting. Please do keep us informed along your journey.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I drew a quick 10 minute drawing of what it might look like. With steel cover that is push in to contain the fouling and for hammer pin to hit. And hand punch to remove it.

View attachment 142021View attachment 142022

 

[junkman_01]

Very nice RodDoc. I see how this will work now.

 

[Jim K]

That should work if the soft cap doesn't back out. I was thinking of a two piece brass or steel shell. The main part would have a screwed in nipple, but no rim. The rear part would have the rim and a hole just big enough for the firing pin and would screw onto the front part surrounding and partly covering the cap to keep it in place.

I think one would call such a device an auxiliary chamber, not a shell or cartridge for legal purposes.

Jim

 

[BCRider]

Instead of a push pin to remove the cap why not just make a larger recess in the rear? Something with a rounded hollow much like a soup bowl with the nipple in the middle. That would easily give the room needed to reach in with a little prying stick to flip out the spent cap.

Seals do not need to be in the form of a flexible wall that expands out. Besides to make the sidewall thin enough to properly expand out would require some pretty fancy machine work. And easier solution would be to go with a thick wall and use a groove with an O ring to provide the seal. The O ring in this case not being a typical rubber ring but rather a ring of soft copper wire wrapped around a form and the ends cut on a 45 angle. To make a supply of such rings machine up a mandrel and then wind a close wrapped coil "spring" of wire around it. For wire of around 18 guage a sharp knife can then be used to cut through two turns to give you a ring with overlapping edges. In use the high pressure of the gasses will push the copper Oring nicely into the joint between the "auxillary chamber" and the barrel chamber. Unlike the nice 3D cad drawing posted by TheRocDoc this chamber would remain in place for the day. At the end of the day it would be pushed out to allow cleaning. A new ring would replace the old for next time. If sized well the friction from the copper would provide the chamber with a nice snug hand push fit for inserting the chamber. The rolling block would be rolled back to allow replacing the cap only, the aux. chamber being left in place for the day.

I would also suggest that the mouth of the aux. chamber be well chamfered and even very slightly belled out very slightly for the first few mm's to give a firm press fit of it's own. This will aid in avoiding any embers being trapped in the gap that would be present otherwise. It would also ensure that all the powder poured down the barrel ends up in the aux chamber's powder holding area.