Convicted felons owning guns

Should convicted felons be allowed to own Firearms?

  • Yes

    Votes: 203 41.4%
  • No

    Votes: 287 58.6%

  • Total voters
    490
  • Poll closed .
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"Apparently about half of the board disagrees with you. The other half still retains some common sense."


You are in favor of giving felons guns and you talk about common sense. Brilliant. :rolleyes:
 
When I suggested that preventing gun owners from making private sales would help to further prevent felons from obtaining guns, how many hands do you think went up in here to support that idea, even though it is a completely viable way to limit access?

This one always pops up and it's another of those "sounds good" things that doesn't appear to actually pass the reality test though.

FBI says:

80% of guns used in crimes are stolen or sold in illegal transactions.
20% of guns used in crimes are sold legally or are straw purchases (they don't break those down).

So, of the 20% legal sales it would be reasonable to assume that half or more are through licensed dealers, fair enough? And let's give another say 2% to straw purchases like the Columbine kids used, a friend or relative getting the firearm from a dealer.

Let's say 6% maybe through non dealer transactions? (just a swag of course).

So, if all private firearm sales are outlawed that forces, at the absolute best case, 6% of criminals having to look elsewhere for their guns.

Is that enough reason to outlaw the sale of a legally owned piece of property by a law abiding citizen? And, at the same time, creating yet ANOTHER way for a law abiding citizen to become a "felon" if he screws up some kind of gun sale in the future?

Isn't that exactly what many here are talking about, the increase in the WAYS to become a felon being out of control already?

That one is a non starter it seems to me.
 
You are in favor of giving felons guns and you talk about common sense. Brilliant.

More evidence of your inability to defend your support for an anti gun measure. Attack the argument, not my intelligence.

Yes, I am in favor of allowing people who have served their time to again own a firearm because I realize making a useless law barring them from doing so does nothing to stop the determined felon anyways.

How awful and low of me, to seek to reverse the unconstitutional and anti gun/disarmament measures that the less informed have supported over the years because of a lack of Constitutional understanding.

EDIT:

So, if all private firearm sales are outlawed that forces, at the absolute best case, 6% of criminals having to look elsewhere for their guns.

Look, I obviously don't support such a ban on private sales, I was only indicating that it would indeed reduce the availability of guns to the felon. One more outlet they would be barred from.

The law that says "felons cannot possess firearms" prevents far fewer than 6% (more like 0%) from getting a gun, so I used this to show that by the "felons ought not have guns" logic, this legislation makes perfect sense and their lack of support for such a law shows them to be somewhat two faced about it because now it would affect them personally.

If they are against felons getting guns, why not help stop the channels they can still use to get them?

In effect, my argument then is: "When they stripped convicted felons of their gun rights I didn't speak up cause I wasn't a convicted felon......"
 
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Yes, I am in favor of allowing people who have served their time to again own a firearm because I realize making a useless law barring them from doing so does nothing to stop the determined felon anyways.

Let's keep in mind that the laws banning felons from owning firearms only prevent felons from walking into a gunshop and buying a gun legally. They are perfectly able to steal guns or purchase them illegally. The effect of the law might make it harder for a felon to obtain a gun. Might not. That's not really the point.

What it does do is make it a major offense for said felon to be caught with a firearm. He will know that if he gets pulled over for something as minor as a traffic stop and he's carrying, he's going back in the slammer. If that's a problem, he can always petition for restoration of his rights.

Y'know, there's been talk here about "violent vs non-violent" felons. The more I consider this, the less I'm sure I grasp the distinction. Somebody steals my identity and ruins my life and credit and costs me tens of thousands to clean up the damage and has me living a sheer hell, well, if that clown gets caught I want that person to do hard time and lose some significant rights. It's part of the punishment.
 
The effect of the law might make it harder for a felon to obtain a gun. Might not.

Not. That discussion is pretty much closed. A determined person can get a gun. Look at the UK if you don't believe it, or anywhere else guns are tightly regulated/banned.

What it does do is make it a major offense for said felon to be caught with a firearm.

Again, reducing a fellow American to 2nd class citizen status.

Somebody steals my identity and ruins my life and credit and costs me tens of thousands to clean up the damage and has me living a sheer hell, well, if that clown gets caught I want that person to do hard time and lose some significant rights.

You accidentally run over someone's kid and are charged and convicted of manslaughter. You are no longer worthy to own a gun. The parents want to "see a serious loss of rights", regardless of whether you were willfully disregarding life or not.

How do you feel now?

Commission of a crime and conviction of a crime can often mean two different things entirely.

It's part of the punishment.

In a post 1968 GCA world, I suppose it would be. But if you stand for freedom and the Constitution, you ought to resist that type of thinking. It's what the anti gunners want you to believe, that their "common sense" gun laws are actually common sense, when little could be further from the truth.
 
My answer is "it depends." Serious or violent felonies, forget it. However, some relatively trivial crimes can also be felonies (e.g., simple possession of small amounts of drugs, possession of horse meat in CA:rolleyes:). On a case by case basis, after X amount of time keeping their noses squeaky clean, I am in favor of gun rights being restored to such persons.
 
I agree with Vern on this if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Who don't agree with Vern...but
I try and remember that every time my kid brings home a turtle to keep as a pet. I'd hate to live the rest of my life helplessly disarmed just because that turtle is on the wrong species list.
This scenario is just one of many mentioned throughout this thread. You would have to be close minded not to see there is a problem as stated over and over here. What is so hard to understand about people being railroaded by the law of the land?
 
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You accidentally run over someone's kid and are charged and convicted of manslaughter

Last I saw, a misdemeanor is NOT a felony - moot point. More relevant would be an 18 y.o. getting busted for a sex crime because his horny girlfriend is 16 and now he's labeled a sex offender, and can't buy a hunting gun or similar
 
More relevant would be an 18 y.o. getting busted for a sex crime because his horny girlfriend is 16 and now he's labeled a sex offender, and can't buy a hunting gun or similar

Not really, an 18 year old dating a minor child would know he is engaging in risky behavior. Girls have to say no all the time to avoid the risk of pregnancy and VD. The guy that won't say no to avoid the risk of a felony neither needs nor deserves sympathy.
 
Felons cannot possess guns, period. That's the law. But is a person who has served his sentence a felon?

Most felons are released on parole, a continuation of their sentence and are still felons. After satisfactorily completing all requirements of their sentence, prison time and parole they have paid their debt to society and are no longer felons.

If they have their right to vote restored, then why not their right to possess firearms?
 
Not. That discussion is pretty much closed.

No. That isn't the point. The law isn't really interested in the fact that some crime-freak can get a gun. Of course he can. The point is that the moment he ventures outdoors with one on his person, he is committing a crime that can send him back to penitentiary.
 
The point is that the moment he ventures outdoors with one on his person,

And this proves evil intent? I'm reminded of an impassioned politician saying that recidivism was well over 30% for the state we were in. Once home I did the research to find that would have to include those that were arrested not for an insult to the peace and dignity of the state but failure to pay the fee required for probation. Not getting home on time, fired from their job and other silly things that insulted the sensitivity of the reigning authority.

In this case your felon with a firearm has intent taken out of the equation.
 
And this proves evil intent?

It proves nothing. The point is that a law-abiding citizen is not generally charged with felonious conduct. I've made it quite a ways without seeing the inside of a jail. I'm sure most of us do avoid getting the cuffs slammed on us and getting booked into the criminal justice system. Of those who do, some are release on their own recognizance, etc. But those who are ultimately charged with major felonies and sent to prison are thereby placed into a category of citizens we consider "dangerous." I don't want these people having legal access to firearms until they are proven to be good citizens again.

So. Check your local state's procedures for how a felon regains the 2nd Amendment right. If your state is like mine, the process is logical and reasonable. If he can pass that hurdle, give 'em a gun.
 
oneounceload said:
Last I saw, a misdemeanor is NOT a felony - moot point.

The law as it stands today includes any crime where the POTENTIAL max punishment exceeds one year.
 
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I don't want these people having legal access to firearms until they are proven to be good citizens again.

If they aren't good citizens what on earth are they doing out of prison? With the popularity of incremental-ism in government I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of 'suppressing' rights out of realization that the various judicial systems are failing at maintaining a peaceful society.
 
So. Check your local state's procedures for how a felon regains the 2nd Amendment right. If your state is like mine, the process is logical and reasonable. If he can pass that hurdle, give 'em a gun.
Thats it...sounds simple to me but I'm not having to apply.
But I think lot of these people are saying that this process means 0 success for all who have made the attempt no matter the case history.
 
I have lived in TX (served on a jury there), NV, now FL - and in each state a misdemeanor, by definition, has a sentence less than 1 year.

The question becomes as originally posed - Once a felon has served his sentence, is he still considered a felon? Currently, he is as far as gun ownership, voting, etc. are concerned
 
I have lived in TX (served on a jury there), NV, now FL - and in each state a misdemeanor, by definition, has a sentence less than 1 year.

Yeah I've always assumed that's what separated misdemeanors and felonies, but the wording in the Federal statutes leads one to believe that's not the case.

Persons convicted of/under indictment (or information) for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, whether or not sentence was imposed. This includes misdemeanor offenses with a potential term of imprisonment in excess of two years, whether or not sentence was imposed.

Doesn't matter much I guess, just a weird way of wording it.
 
The effect of the law might make it harder for a felon to obtain a gun.

Only that they need to look in the back of a local newspaper at firearms for sale. People lie and have fake documents (assuming that the seller even asks), can you tell the difference?

Oh and for those who say "give felons a gun" no they'd need to get one in the same way as everyone else. They won't be leaving prison with a federally issued "Saturday Night Special".

You would have to be close minded not to see there is a problem

No you'd need to be an idiot, you're relying on a political powers benevolence that has defined this "infingement" to not encroach on the sole mechanism provided to overthrow that political power at such a time as the political power becomes tyrannical. Or to simplify, the wolf has said that these are bad sheep, and will only eat bad sheep, you have the wolfs word.

This doesn't happen overnight, and is incremental, you attack people who are socially acceptable first (felons), extend that classification (10,000 new felonies in under 10 years), then make others socially unacceptable (mental health, domestic violence) then rinse lather repeat (political and religious extremists...?, lawyers?, postal workers?). By the time the courts catch up, its so ingrained it just makes sense. Consider that in 1910 the people in the UK had easier access to firearms than we have in the current US. by 2000 they had almost none. By using exactly the strategy outlined above (admittedly by vilifying gun crime and gun owners, the US has vilified gun crime, and other classifications), until people who legitimately wanted firearms were looked at as deviant, and by wanting to own firearms became suspect by that very want.

At the risk of introducing politics about arguments about the body politic being happy with these, well are they really, remember make a classification socially unacceptable first (indoctrinating the body politic), then restrict that classifications rights. Also if the body politic was truly functional the way it should be, and Congress respected that, then would AIG et al. have been bailed out? Would a Universal Healthcare plan still be in debate?

Finally of course there's the elephant in the room that no-one has yet mentioned, self defense shootings. Lot of discussion here about them, do you want to rely on 12 people who may be upstanding gun owners, or equally likely upstanding Bradyites, deciding your future gun ownership, and your families regardless of any other punishment? If you're convicted for unlawful use of a firearm in self defense then you can't own again (even if only given time served as a sentence) and it can happen on something as simple as there was no need to escalate to lethal force (i.e. 5' 5" burglar in your home unarmed and not an active threat) you jumped the gun so to speak (of course you didn't know he was unarmed, just trying to steal you DVD collection). Now your spouse can't own while living with you, unless you and they want to take the risk that someday they're out without their gun or the safe is unlocked or you have the combination to the safe as well, the police arrive with a warrant and search the place (and hey you're a convicted felon, it's not so hard to get), find the gun(s) and you're back in the Pen for unlawful possession (constructive). But that would never happen to anyone on here right? If it did they'd never complain about how unjust it was after the event.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

By allowing and supporting the governments ability to define a classification (or classifications) of those who cannot exercise the right to keep and bear arms, you are sacrificing an essential liberty (as soon as deliberately, or accidentally you cross that vague line, that often you may not know exists indeed people cross it every day they just aren't caught and convicted), for no statistically verifiable safety. If you'd like proof of this (crossing the felony line), look at the 1982 Senate Subcommittee report on the Intent of the Second Amendment (Check out the legal thread). Illinois was requesting that the ATF take on cases of convicted felons who were using sawed off shotguns, but the ATF were at that time busy entrapping Collectors who were selling four or more firearms as "in business" or FFL's selling to people who weren't going to be the owner when there was not a defined "straw man" purchase law. The committee themselves said that the action of the ATF was "constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible.". These people did nothing legally wrong, but many were convicted of felonies, lost the right to keep and bear arms, and in many cases they also lost a large amount of property too. As we know people need to justify their expenditure of tax dollars, if a few innocent people get ground up in the gears that's perfectly legitimate.

Hey but whom I to argue, whatever lets you sleep at night, right...? You can feel safe that felons aren't armed, and I'll lie awake concerned about government tyranny.
 
In my early 20's, long, long ago, I lived in Virginia. I always kept a Single Six in my truck. Sometimes, work required driving across the Potomac into Maryland. At the time I had no idea that it was a felony to have that little .22 in the truck while in Maryland. Glad I never got caught. But it seems like my fellow members believe that perpetual loss of my rights would have been fair and just. I'm astounded.
 
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Some issues supporters of this law seemingly dismiss:

Not all felonies are "serious crimes" - there has been a inflation in the number of crimes considered felonies, which in the past, as in 1968 when this law was passed, were not.

As has been noted by a number of posters there is often no viable or realistic way for individuals to pursure restoration of their RKBA in many states.

The RKBA is a much more central and basic right than the right to vote or the right to pursue a specific profession. It is the right to defend oneself and one's loved ones - do supporters of this law really feel that the children and spouse of someone convicted of DUI and credit card fraud should be automatically banned from ever having a firearm available to defend themselves? Well just divorce dad, don't ever get married, don't have kids, or just put the kids up for adoption - after all if you can't do the time then don't do the crime. Like the woman artist who was given a feather and incorporated it into a hanging piece of art and then gave it to a politician as a gift - oops bad move - turns out it was an feather from an endangered species - she avoided club fed - but is still a felon - hopes she lives in a state with a viable or realistic process for restoring her rights.

Just to be clear, typically a felony is any crime that could potentially lead to incarceration for 366 days - so whatever crime is worthy of a "potential sentence" of that amount of time - is also - according to this federal law and evidently the people who support it - also worthy of an automatic lifetime ban on the RKBA (which is what it amounts to in many states) and on "effective self-defense" - per FBI UCR year after year - a firearm is the only means of self defense that prevents more injury than non-resistance and the most effective in preventing completion of a crime - important especially when it comes to murder and rape.

This automatic removal of the RKBA for "all felons" is patently wrong. The idea that well they are felons and guilty of a crime so whatever they get they deserve is to either ignore the many cases where it is a punishment out of proportion to the original offense or to be totally callus to many of one's fellow human beings or their families.

Again, the law in question is the federal prohibition on "all felons" from legally being able to own a gun. It is not a law that discriminates on the basis of violent felons or murderers or rapists or child molesters. A narrowly taylored law or an individual determination at trial and sentencing of a termed or lifetime ban or a clear objective and available federal process for restoration would be a different thing - a thing that does not exist. Many of us might support such things - but cannot support this overly broad law.
 
fireside, my apologies for throwing something personal in there. I mean that.
I am not however supporting an anti gun measure. I am supporting an anti criminal measure. I'm as pro 2A as anyone you know, I just believe the Constitution of this country should only apply to those who abide by the laws of this country. (I mean serious offenses here. Not jaywalking and bringing the wrong turtle home)
You mentioned something about making people 2nd class citizens. No one is made a 2nd class citizen. When you disreguard the rights of others and harm them, you have made yourself a 2nd class citizen.
Once again, my apologies for the personal comments. I won't delete them because I said them. I won't be a chump and try to pretend like I didn't. It wasn't very high road, and I admit it.
 
Well we are certainly getting nowhere. The same arguments are recycled over and over again. But the fact remains that under current federal law, and the laws of many states, persons convicted of felonies, as well as, in some cases, persons convicted of certain crimes which are not felonies, may not lawfully possess firearms.

Those of you who object, what are you doing to change the situation? Indeed, I reiterate the challenge I put forth in post 253:
fiddletown said:
For all those who feel strongly that felons ought not be permanently barred from possessing guns, the relevant provisions of the GCA are ripe for judicial challenge now that Heller has been decided. And assuming the McDonald goes our way, similar state statutes could also be attacked in court. It's just a matter of finding the right plaintiffs -- and a very large amount of money. Any volunteers, either as plaintiff or to furnish the financing?...

But unless and until some of you mobilize to do something beyond complaining on the Internet, the "prohibited persons" laws are likely to remain. Personally, I'm more interested in supporting the preservation and enhancement of gun rights for law abiding gun owners.
 
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