Copper Bullets
- Thread starter josmund
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Higher price, not for range shooting mostly for hunting.
Two bullets of the same weight and shape one lead and one copper.
The copper will stabilize better than the lead because the copper bullet is longer than the lead bullet.
They do require different load formulas if your hand loading.
I shoot both and I hand load my own.
I love the copper except for the price.
Two bullets of the same weight and shape one lead and one copper.
The copper will stabilize better than the lead because the copper bullet is longer than the lead bullet.
They do require different load formulas if your hand loading.
I shoot both and I hand load my own.
I love the copper except for the price.
The biggest problem folks run into with copper bullets is trying to shoot bullets too heavy. Drop down at least 1, probably 2 weights and load them as fast as you can. Unlike conventional bullets they retain 100% of their weight, or darn near it, even with the lightest bullets at the fastest speeds. It takes a VERY good conventional lead bullet to retain 80%, and most are 50% or less after recovery. That means a conventional 130 gr 270 bullet would weigh 50-100 gr after impact. A Copper bullet starting at 90-110 gr will outpenetrate a conventional 130 gr bullet even though it may be 400-500 fps faster.
The 2nd reason is impact velocity. Conventional bullets will still expand at slower speeds, the copper bullets need to impact at around 2000-2200 fps. or they don't expand. Folks who try to use the same weights they have been using often are disappointed because they just pencil through with little or no expansion because they are too heavy and too slow.
They are not a good choice for the guy who wants to shoot at 600-700 yards because of the above. But at normal hunting ranges of under 400 yards they are just fine as long as you can get velocity up there.
For most hunting they aren't really needed. Where they shine is when using a gun that would normally be considered borderline powerful enough for the game hunted. They make a 243 perform like a 30-06 on larger game. But there is something to be said for just developing one load and using it on everything. It may be more than needed most of the time, but you'll have it when needed.
They are more expensive, but a little perspective. The price difference between 200 Barnes copper bullets, and 200 standard jacketed lead bullets won't fill the tank of my truck with gas. 200 bullets will last me 4-5 years for load development, practice and hunting. For about the cost of 3/4 tank of gas every 4-5 years they are cheap insurance for a better hunting bullet. If you like to shoot 100 rounds a month at the range, you need a cheaper bullet. I've also found that Hornady SST's in the same bullet weight shoot at about the same speed and trajectory. A cheaper practice bullet to make the copper bullets last longer.
The 2nd reason is impact velocity. Conventional bullets will still expand at slower speeds, the copper bullets need to impact at around 2000-2200 fps. or they don't expand. Folks who try to use the same weights they have been using often are disappointed because they just pencil through with little or no expansion because they are too heavy and too slow.
They are not a good choice for the guy who wants to shoot at 600-700 yards because of the above. But at normal hunting ranges of under 400 yards they are just fine as long as you can get velocity up there.
For most hunting they aren't really needed. Where they shine is when using a gun that would normally be considered borderline powerful enough for the game hunted. They make a 243 perform like a 30-06 on larger game. But there is something to be said for just developing one load and using it on everything. It may be more than needed most of the time, but you'll have it when needed.
They are more expensive, but a little perspective. The price difference between 200 Barnes copper bullets, and 200 standard jacketed lead bullets won't fill the tank of my truck with gas. 200 bullets will last me 4-5 years for load development, practice and hunting. For about the cost of 3/4 tank of gas every 4-5 years they are cheap insurance for a better hunting bullet. If you like to shoot 100 rounds a month at the range, you need a cheaper bullet. I've also found that Hornady SST's in the same bullet weight shoot at about the same speed and trajectory. A cheaper practice bullet to make the copper bullets last longer.
I will only be using these as a hunting round after sight in.
I do wish to reload by hand. I guess my biggest question would be weight. I usually hunt with 140's but wonder if I should go up with a copper bullet.
Boat tail needed with the longer bullet design?
At $35-40 per 50. I want to try to get this done in one try.
I do wish to reload by hand. I guess my biggest question would be weight. I usually hunt with 140's but wonder if I should go up with a copper bullet.
Boat tail needed with the longer bullet design?
At $35-40 per 50. I want to try to get this done in one try.
Apex Predator
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I have found copper bullets to be very picky in seating depth, also the loads that work well with lead core bullets don't translate to lead free very well, I had to start from scratch. In the end my SST and SGK handloads were faster and more accurate so I shelved my TSXs. I might give them another go someday but for now I can still hunt with the leaded stuff.
gamestalker
member
Since RL22 is unavailable right now, I use IMR-4350 and H4831 for most of my .270 loads. I've tried most all the copper bullets, and I really like them, especially the Barnes line. A 130 can be served up accurately and at 3150 fps, with an impressive B.C. due to it's significantly longer profile.
But I run them at full throttle, and then some, and they always perform excellent for me. I always seat them right up to the lands in the rifles I run them in, and they group extremely well, but different rifles like different oal's. Be sure to pay attention to pressures during work up. This is because they do seat deeper in the case, so they consume more case volume, and especially if you seat them up close to the lands pressures will rise. I've yet to really come across a .270 that doesn't have the ability to produce good groups with solid copper bullets though, or any other bullet for that matter, just a great cartridge.
GS
But I run them at full throttle, and then some, and they always perform excellent for me. I always seat them right up to the lands in the rifles I run them in, and they group extremely well, but different rifles like different oal's. Be sure to pay attention to pressures during work up. This is because they do seat deeper in the case, so they consume more case volume, and especially if you seat them up close to the lands pressures will rise. I've yet to really come across a .270 that doesn't have the ability to produce good groups with solid copper bullets though, or any other bullet for that matter, just a great cartridge.
GS
Copper bullets can be really really accurate in many guns, some just don't like them however. Ive use 30s and 7s on whitetails up to eland. Never had a pencil hole. Most critters either lay down on the spot or painted the landscape w/ blood trail. Except 1. Found her anyhow. For longer ranges the tipped bullets seem to expand more reliably. The copper bullets are longer and need more spin to stabilize so don't use heavy for caliber bullets unless yer at short ranges. Ive loaded some Etips for a relative and he gets <1/2' out of a 300WSM. I use TSXs in a 300 and a 7 ., both like about 0.060" bullet jump. This seems to correspond to magazine length in both WSMs. Daughter has 120TTSX in 7-08, but hasn't had deer walk in front of her yet. Iuse R19 and H1000. Norma 202 seems to be available currently, that might be a good choice to use. Oh, the 130 TTSX would be a good choice for all ranges. Or even a 115, I think.
Here's my thought... save your money and be less aggravated with the bonded bullets. They cost less, are nearly as tough (unless you're shooting elephants I wouldn't worry about any solid bullet, rather copper, steel, or whatever), are more accurate 99 and 44/100% of the time. BUT, if you insist on the copper bullets make sure to buy two boxes... you're going to need them, and that's just for finding one semi-accurate load.
Andrew Leigh
Member
What JMR40 said firstly.
A couple of caveats, insufficient speed and the mono's do not deploy the petals, this can mean that the bullets zips straight through and the makes very small holes leading to less blood trail and at time almost no blood. This is the exception though but has happened with a resulting lost buck.
A lot of guys here use mono's to drop weight and increase speed for flatter trajectories.
If you think that there will the chance that you need to break heavy bone then they are a good choice. As stated they can also be used to "extend" a marginal calibre a bit.
I don't shoot mono's as I belong to the slow and heavy club rather than the grain of rice at the speed of light club. Not knocking them boys, each to their own. So for me, premium bonded bullets have yet to fail me.
A couple of caveats, insufficient speed and the mono's do not deploy the petals, this can mean that the bullets zips straight through and the makes very small holes leading to less blood trail and at time almost no blood. This is the exception though but has happened with a resulting lost buck.
A lot of guys here use mono's to drop weight and increase speed for flatter trajectories.
If you think that there will the chance that you need to break heavy bone then they are a good choice. As stated they can also be used to "extend" a marginal calibre a bit.
I don't shoot mono's as I belong to the slow and heavy club rather than the grain of rice at the speed of light club. Not knocking them boys, each to their own. So for me, premium bonded bullets have yet to fail me.
Grumulkin
Member
1. I've tried load workups in a number of cartridges with copper/gilding monometal bullets. In some guns excellent accuracy is obtained but in probably an equal number it hasn't been satisfactory.
2. The longer a bullet is, the faster the twist needs to be to stabilize it. Another way to look at it is that a longer bullet is harder to stabilize. This is the reason some advise to go down in weight when using a copper bullet. A boat tailed bullet is longer for its weight than is a flat based bullet.
3. The advantages I see to copper bullets is that you eliminate the possibility of lead poisoning from the meat and get better penetration. Other than that I see no advantage.
3. You don't need special load data to load copper bullets. Just start at the low end of whatever bullet weight you're using and work up as usual.
4. Barnes, unfortunately, has changed their bullets multiple times. What this means is that you work up a load for an expensive bullets and then, when you try to get more, they're unavailable. For that reason, I would recommend buying a LOT of you favorite bullets if you're using Barnes bullets or go with another manufacturer of lead free monometal bullets like Hornady or Nosler both of which have a much better track record of producing the same bullet for a long time.
5. If you want a reduced load, I doubt copper bullets will work for you.
2. The longer a bullet is, the faster the twist needs to be to stabilize it. Another way to look at it is that a longer bullet is harder to stabilize. This is the reason some advise to go down in weight when using a copper bullet. A boat tailed bullet is longer for its weight than is a flat based bullet.
3. The advantages I see to copper bullets is that you eliminate the possibility of lead poisoning from the meat and get better penetration. Other than that I see no advantage.
3. You don't need special load data to load copper bullets. Just start at the low end of whatever bullet weight you're using and work up as usual.
4. Barnes, unfortunately, has changed their bullets multiple times. What this means is that you work up a load for an expensive bullets and then, when you try to get more, they're unavailable. For that reason, I would recommend buying a LOT of you favorite bullets if you're using Barnes bullets or go with another manufacturer of lead free monometal bullets like Hornady or Nosler both of which have a much better track record of producing the same bullet for a long time.
5. If you want a reduced load, I doubt copper bullets will work for you.
Apex Predator
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Nevermind I take back everything bad I have ever said about the TSX, I had loaded a batch several months ago with RL 19 and never shot them since thry performed so poorly with other powders. Well 61.5 at 3.300 gave me sub moa accuracy, 3040fps and no hint of pressure in my 06. That is every bit as good as any lead core bullet.
Grumulkin
Member
No, actually I'm not kidding. Depending on bullet construction, there can be a lead spray for more distance around a bullet hole than you might think. If the bullet hits pretty far away from where you're eating then there is no problem. If you try to eat too close to the hole, you may ingest lead the effects of which are cumulative.
Okay, I'll take you seriously.
Lead is bad for you - we agree on that.
Lead is everywhere in our environment, and we all ingest it on a daily basis, like it or not.
What is lacking here is perspective. On the scale of lead dangers, the relatively large particles of a shattered bullet which may be found in blood shot meat, in the quantity of that meat that could be eaten in a lifetime, pale into utter insignificance. And the human digestive system lacks any mechanism for converting them into dangerous forms.
Dangers come from extremely fine lead particles and vapors, which we all avoid as much as possible.
A careful reading of the following will supply some much needed perspective.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2060369-overview
Lead is bad for you - we agree on that.
Lead is everywhere in our environment, and we all ingest it on a daily basis, like it or not.
What is lacking here is perspective. On the scale of lead dangers, the relatively large particles of a shattered bullet which may be found in blood shot meat, in the quantity of that meat that could be eaten in a lifetime, pale into utter insignificance. And the human digestive system lacks any mechanism for converting them into dangerous forms.
Dangers come from extremely fine lead particles and vapors, which we all avoid as much as possible.
A careful reading of the following will supply some much needed perspective.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2060369-overview
You can loose softball expansion cavities with some rounds. but you gain so much with solid copper its not funny.
the bullets will always be the same. cant say the same with normall jacket bullets.
example, ive seen 3 different bullets from remington for 100 grain corelokt in .243 winchester. one is the oldest style for bigger animals, one is a varmint only, and one is an inbetween. Ive noticed that only the location of cannelure is different and companies arent making any catalog warnings when they sell the bullets to the public.
So yes gmx costs more, but i know what im getting. i dont want a varmint bullet when i go deer huntin.
the bullets will always be the same. cant say the same with normall jacket bullets.
example, ive seen 3 different bullets from remington for 100 grain corelokt in .243 winchester. one is the oldest style for bigger animals, one is a varmint only, and one is an inbetween. Ive noticed that only the location of cannelure is different and companies arent making any catalog warnings when they sell the bullets to the public.
So yes gmx costs more, but i know what im getting. i dont want a varmint bullet when i go deer huntin.
I use the Barnes TTSX in my 308 Winchester.
Before running any of the solid copper bullets, use a copper remover to clean your barrel thoroughly to remove any traces of fouling from previous jacketed bullets. The jacket metal is much harder than the copper bullet and the fouling can be quite detrimental to accuracy.
If you are reloading, use the data from the manufacturer to develop your loads. Solid copper bullets have different amounts of friction than regular jacketed bullets and standard load data can be over pressure.
I was able to develop 1 MOA for my 308 bolt gun. In the area where I hunt the max distance I would be able to shoot would be about 160 yards, and I can shoot 1.5 inch groups at that distance.
So far, I have taken 5 deer with this bullet. Three with a rifle and two with a T/C Encore pistol in 308 Winchester. In all cases I got full penetration with silver dollar size entrance and exit wounds. The hits were double lung, either broadside or quartering away. Three crumpled on the spot, and two ran for about 5 seconds before stumbling to the ground and giving up the ghost.
Tom
Before running any of the solid copper bullets, use a copper remover to clean your barrel thoroughly to remove any traces of fouling from previous jacketed bullets. The jacket metal is much harder than the copper bullet and the fouling can be quite detrimental to accuracy.
If you are reloading, use the data from the manufacturer to develop your loads. Solid copper bullets have different amounts of friction than regular jacketed bullets and standard load data can be over pressure.
I was able to develop 1 MOA for my 308 bolt gun. In the area where I hunt the max distance I would be able to shoot would be about 160 yards, and I can shoot 1.5 inch groups at that distance.
So far, I have taken 5 deer with this bullet. Three with a rifle and two with a T/C Encore pistol in 308 Winchester. In all cases I got full penetration with silver dollar size entrance and exit wounds. The hits were double lung, either broadside or quartering away. Three crumpled on the spot, and two ran for about 5 seconds before stumbling to the ground and giving up the ghost.
Tom
Thank you for all of the replies.
My motivation is to remove lead from taken game and the gut piles. I've shot and eaten many, many deer with lead projectiles. Actually, my freezer has one in it right now.
Last month I was in Arizona and picked up a brochure which highlighted the damage dome to raptors who feed on gut piles full of lead. They were promoting the use of copper bullets for big game.
Furthermore, my Sister works for the MN DNR. They have done much research on lead in venison. While I can't quote the data, she says herself and all of the DNR hunters she knows use copper bullets to avoid lead in their dinner.
My thought is, if I can get the job done with copper, why not? There may be little risk to me, my family and the critters who feed on the remains but why take the risk if I can easily eliminate it with a copper projectile?
My motivation is to remove lead from taken game and the gut piles. I've shot and eaten many, many deer with lead projectiles. Actually, my freezer has one in it right now.
Last month I was in Arizona and picked up a brochure which highlighted the damage dome to raptors who feed on gut piles full of lead. They were promoting the use of copper bullets for big game.
Furthermore, my Sister works for the MN DNR. They have done much research on lead in venison. While I can't quote the data, she says herself and all of the DNR hunters she knows use copper bullets to avoid lead in their dinner.
My thought is, if I can get the job done with copper, why not? There may be little risk to me, my family and the critters who feed on the remains but why take the risk if I can easily eliminate it with a copper projectile?
Grumulkin
Member
OK, I read it carefully. If you're OK with only absorbing 10% of the lead you consume then blessings on you my son. And, of course, if you don't eat the meat from right around (how far is your guess) the bullet wound you should be OK even with a lead bullet. Trust me, I'm never going to try to take lead bullets away from anyone.
Once upon a time in a galaxy far away was a young man who, for reasons of health, decided that it would be healthier to huff gasoline than kerosene (don't laugh, at least he had some good intentions). This was back in the day of tetraethyl lead in gasoline. He ended up in a psychiatric unit because of bizzare behavior. A clinician who actually got a good history figured out that he wasn't really nuts but had acute lead encephalopathy.
It wasn't pretty.
Now, admittedly, metallic lead isn't nearly as hazzardous as tetraethyl lead but small amounts of lead can have adverse health consequences and exposure is cumulative. But, if you don't care, neither do I.
plmitch
Member
I have had very good luck with a Hornady gmx bullets. It the only thing we use for hunting now. Good performance at a cheap price.
Grumulkin,
I was overly optimistic when I suggested all that is missing is perspective.
I personally don't absorb anything like ten percent of the lead bullet fragments or bird shot I ingest. Likely I don't absorb any of it, since it passes through with everything else, rather quickly and unchanged. If you have a digestive system with a gizzard or some other system that is capable of transforming these into fine dust or vapor, you should indeed avoid eating them.
The rest of the obfuscation and misdirection about huffing gasoline and somebody maybe suggesting taking away lead bullets as a way to divert the discussion from its merits would do credit to a politician.
This horse is dead, and not from lead poisoning.
I was overly optimistic when I suggested all that is missing is perspective.
I personally don't absorb anything like ten percent of the lead bullet fragments or bird shot I ingest. Likely I don't absorb any of it, since it passes through with everything else, rather quickly and unchanged. If you have a digestive system with a gizzard or some other system that is capable of transforming these into fine dust or vapor, you should indeed avoid eating them.
The rest of the obfuscation and misdirection about huffing gasoline and somebody maybe suggesting taking away lead bullets as a way to divert the discussion from its merits would do credit to a politician.
This horse is dead, and not from lead poisoning.
Lead in your food? Are we taking in all the "%$#@ stuff from the People's Republic of California? Fact #1 There is lead in copper bullets as well as a lot of other stuff I would not recommend you eat on a daily basis. You cannot shoot a 100% copper bullet. Fact #2 Eagles and Condors continue to die in California from lead poisoning even though lead bullets have been banned in their nesting areas(the lead is coming from some other source, not bullets) Fact #3 Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan have been testing for lead in game animals for over 30 years and not case of lead poisoning has ever been reported from game meat. Fact #4 A man was arrested in Wisconsin last year for purposely mixing lead into corn for intentionally destroying wildlife habitat. I wonder what he was going to do with that? Creating his own version of Fast and Furious?
Josmund would you please get your sister to point to a source of information about which you are referring. A friend of mine also mentioned lead poisoning in regard to bullets left in gut piles through the MN Rescue for Raptors program. I "Googled" them and got 40 hits on lead poisoning, none of which had any reference to bullets and fragments in game meat or in gut piles for scavenger poisoning.
Here's the information link.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html
I watched online presentation. It was pretty interesting.
The brochure I referenced from my recent rip to AZ.
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/documents/110715_NonLead_broch_FINAL.pdf
Again, I've used lead for close to 40 years. I'm just curious on my options.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html
I watched online presentation. It was pretty interesting.
The brochure I referenced from my recent rip to AZ.
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/documents/110715_NonLead_broch_FINAL.pdf
Again, I've used lead for close to 40 years. I'm just curious on my options.
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