i religiously clean all of my guns after every range session. including a dose of Sweets 7.62 copper solvent. every time i get some blue on the patch that i apply it with, and some on the first patch after soaking. and yes, i do know not to use ANYTHING brass for this purpose, or it can lead to a false positive. most of my shooting is done to find the most accurate loads for my hunting rifles. so i want everything possible to be in my favor. but i am curious about how much copper fouling it takes to really screw up accuracy. 10 rounds, 50, 100? i know i have never fired 100 rounds in a row of anything thru any of my rifles, except the rim fires of course. and it has been years since i ran 50 rounds in a row (without cleaning, not all in one shooting string) thru any of my center fire rifles. so i guess i really would not know. back when i did do the 50 round range days, i did not know about copper build up. when i did find out about it, i had my work cut out for me, and i have been very diligent about keeping it at bay since. all of them have well "broken in" barrels. the youngest (a re-barreled 300 win mag) would probably have in the neighborhood of 300-350 rounds thru it. i also know each barrel will foul at a different rate, depending on it roughness, tightness, and velocity. i am not looking for an exact number, just a ball park number.
copper fouling ?
- Thread starter x_wrench
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MtnCreek
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I would continue to shoot till I started seeing groups open up. After a 100% cleaning on my rifle barrel, it takes several shots to settle back in.
If I were to put up a rifle that I wouldn't be using for a while, I'd give it a good cleaning and leave the barrel a little wet with oil.
If I were to put up a rifle that I wouldn't be using for a while, I'd give it a good cleaning and leave the barrel a little wet with oil.
BADUNAME30
Member
You've pretty much answered yer own question x_wrench.
I used to wonder this very thing myself and after workin with many different Bbls, calibers,cleaners,twist rates,velocities,bullet designs,powders,no. of shots,hot vs. cold Bbls,3 shot,5 shot,10 shot strings,Bbl lenghts, Bbl weights,full floating vs. full bedded vs.'pressure point' bedded,etc., i learned that each and every Bbl was an entity in itself.
As you can see,there is a lengthy list of variables.
Only you can answer yer own question with yer own particular rifle.
I will say this tho. SWEETS allways kept all copper at bey for me.
MutinousDoug
Member
I de-copper my High Power guns with Sweet's after every shooting season. On my AR that's about every 5-600 rounds. My vintage guns: M1, 03-A3 and Carbine more like 2-300 rounds. During the season I patch out the chamber with GI bore cleaner (Mil-C-372B) followed by a wet patch of Butch's down the barrel to push the carbon out the muzzle or breech. Some copper comes out on that patch but I make no attempt to remove any remaining. My AR shoots differently from a clean bore than from a fouled one and I can't afford to waste my sighter shots. The guns shoot as well at the end of the season as they do at the beginning.
I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy; a 3" ten shot group at 200yds from sitting is all "X"s and a 6" group is still a clean all 10's. The same scoring rings apply to the 300yd prone stage. My AR is capable of 1.75" groups at 200yds off sandbags, the 03-A3 about 3", Garand about 4" and the M-1 Carbine about 6".
HTH
I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy; a 3" ten shot group at 200yds from sitting is all "X"s and a 6" group is still a clean all 10's. The same scoring rings apply to the 300yd prone stage. My AR is capable of 1.75" groups at 200yds off sandbags, the 03-A3 about 3", Garand about 4" and the M-1 Carbine about 6".
HTH
i did at one point actually have enough copper in a barrel to produce deteriorating accuracy. the problem is i do not have any idea how many shots it took to get there. the copper solvent i was using, went bad because of me not knowing how to properly use it. so the copper kept building for an unknown amount of time. once i figured out the problem, it took me a week to remove all the copper in the barrel. again part of that was a learning curve. i actually ended up using jb compound on that barrel to help rid the copper. that was also when i found out about sweets. it made me so paranoid about it returning, i have gone to the far extreme to make sure nothing ever accumulated. while that is not all bad, i also know that a totally clean barrel does shoot to a different impact point. i guess i should make up 100 rounds, and see where things settle in at, and if things start to go bad in that amount of shooting or not. but with a 300 win mag, that is a lot of shooting. at least for me it is.
788Ham
Member
Try a couple patches of JB's Bore Cleaner down the barrel. Put some on a patch and run it from the breech to the bore, about 15 - 20 times. Clean patch down the bore to clean it out. Bore light to check, if not all gone, re-do it again. Pretty simple operation really, clean the firearm more often, it won't be too hard to keep it cleaned out!
Not to highjack the thread, but do you reload? I've just started trying out Hodgdons Copper Fouling Eliminator 223 powder. My Savage Weather Warrior in .22-250 always had some copper in the bore after a range session. Went to the range Sunday and fired 50 rounds. Bullets were Nosler 55gr Varmageddons and Hornady 40gr Z-Maxs. Also fired 50 rnds of .223 in my CZ-527. Bullets were 55gr Nosler B.T.s with CFE 223 powder. Plus I fired 40 rnds of .243 in my Marlin XSS7. Bullets were 58gr Hornady Z-Max. All rifles were clean. After shooting, there was no trace of copper in the bores.Accuracy was ok in .223, fair in .22-250, and sub .75" in .243.
I have shot 100s of rounds over a few 3-4 day p-dog shoots with my .223 and 17HMR and only ran a boresnake thru them. I was still killing dogs as well on day 4 as day one, so in that respect, the dirty barrel didn't seem to matter. However, once I got home and scrubbed my 17HMR, an Anschutz, I shot the best 7 shot group I have ever shot. My Rem 700 .223 shoots better after a few fouling shots. What you will learn is that every rifle is different...kind of no-brainer, but I learned to take my cleaning equipment with me to scrub my HMR at the end of each day...not so much the .223
i do reload. i have seen that powder, and it is on the try list. i do buy powders to try every so often. i can usually find a good way to burn it up. my latest was actually a mistake. which has been lack luster so far. i am going to try it in my brothers 30-06. anyway, i wonder how they are reducing copper fouling with the 223cfe powder. my first thought was they added a dry lubricant, such as graphite or moly to the powder. but i have not contacted them to find out yet.
that is what i have been thinking lately. besides that, all those patches cost a lot of money! 20-30 per gun, per session, times that by 3 or 4 rifles, and a couple of pistols 3-4 times a month minimum. dad taught us many many good things. however, many of the gun cleaning things he taught us was just plain wrong. i would guess it was what the army taught him. and one of them was to deep clean every gun every time it was shot. add to that, my bad experience with copper build up, and i just got paranoid. it really is against my nature to put a gun away without cleaning it at all. it just seams like a bad idea. that probably comes from looking down the barrel of grandmothers 32-40 winchester. of course, that was a black powder gun, and i can almost guarantee it got put up dirty many times. to bad grandma was done hunting before i was ready to hunt. she was a neat ol gal.
If you shoot 50 rounds through a pistol, and put it away after wiping it down good, then do this over and over until you get to 500 rounds before you clean it, is it any different than shooting 500 rounds in two days and then cleaning the pistol?
Rifle barrels need cleaning more often than pistol barrels, IMHO. Some rifle barrels foul a lot, while some foul very little. It is all about when accuracy falls off for that barrel.
I always let my guns acclimate themselves to the outside weather before shooting them, and always do the same inside before wiping them down and putting them away. I do not give them a thorough cleaning every time.
Rifle barrels need cleaning more often than pistol barrels, IMHO. Some rifle barrels foul a lot, while some foul very little. It is all about when accuracy falls off for that barrel.
I always let my guns acclimate themselves to the outside weather before shooting them, and always do the same inside before wiping them down and putting them away. I do not give them a thorough cleaning every time.
sansone
Member
most new barrels (lately) seem to be a little rough and copper foul until the bore burnishes smooth. # of shots depends on the rifle. Pistols not so much.
You've answered your own question (sort of) and the designated copper solvents do their job, you will notice less blue residue with time, and forgive me for saying: never clean from the muzzle, use a chamber guide, avoid stainless brushes, don't push brush dry, only push brush from chamber out.. with proper care you will not wear-out that bore cleaning.
You've answered your own question (sort of) and the designated copper solvents do their job, you will notice less blue residue with time, and forgive me for saying: never clean from the muzzle, use a chamber guide, avoid stainless brushes, don't push brush dry, only push brush from chamber out.. with proper care you will not wear-out that bore cleaning.
how do you clean a Browning BAR if not from the muzzle??? screwing tips on while they are in the chamber is a ROYAL PITA! i understand why to not clean from the muzzle. but sometimes, it is so much less difficult to do so. my dad, cleaned his pre 64 Winchester 70 from the muzzle all of his life. it went to my litte brother when dad passed on, and that is the way he cleaned it until 2 years ago when i saw him doing it and corrected him. i honestly can not tell you how it shoots right now. he has had me do some loading for him, but for some odd reason refuses to see how well they group. he shoots 2 rounds every season to see if it is still " sighted in" which means less than a 3" apart, and close to the center of a paper plate. i want to explode on him like a 2 billion mega-ton nuke when he pulls that crap. i bet my blood pressure at least doubles. to have a nice rifle like that, and not tune the ammo to it is a mortal sin! especially when i have repeatedly offered to do the entire job for him.
Mr.454
Member
A quick cleaning for me is a few passes with a Bore Snake and some oil.
MtnCreek
Member
how do you clean a Browning BAR if not from the muzzle???
I use a one piece, coated rod and a bore guide. I think people sometimes read that 'the bench rest guys do xyz' and then think that applies to everything. I'm careful when putting the jag in the muzzle and clean away. YMMV.
I use a one piece, coated rod and a bore guide. I think people sometimes read that 'the bench rest guys do xyz' and then think that applies to everything. I'm careful when putting the jag in the muzzle and clean away. YMMV.
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