Cop's 1911 vs. MRI Machine
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Sunray
Member
"...enter the MR suite with the pistol..." Exactly what I thought. Do you not get to wear one of those comfy hospital 'gowns' when you're being magnetized? I can envision Gleason as Buford T. Justice strolling into the room complete with the hat and duty belt over the 'gown'.
Grump
Member
Naw, I won't buy the Ti firing pin suggestion b/c the flying-gun-inertia-powered firing pin theory. Magnetism won't affect that.
AND, anyone have a reading on whether the Ti parts really won't be attracted to extremely high-Gauss magnetic fields? They've floated living FROGS* in strong fields (though I don't know if that was the same or double or 10x the field of an MRI...)
Looks to me like a non-magnetic FP block and perhaps spring also would have been needed to prevent it, AFTER all the other preventable measures. I've had discussions more than a decade ago about whether an MRI machine could pull a service pistol from an LEO's holster. I'd be shocked if the facility lacked some big-lettered signage about DON'T TAKE ANYTHING METAL INSIDE THIS ROOM!!!...for those less-informed than my buds.
At least the magnetic field didn't have some microwave-on-sugar-type effect and cook off the powder or priming compound directly. That would royally suck!
I don't remember the article saying whether there was a FP imprint in the primer, and whether any such print was "normal" in appearance, or as they say in MedSpeak, "not remarkable".
Although the internal safety did not prevent this one, I believe that LACK of a FP safety would virtually _guarantee_ that an MRI-launched pistol would fire once it hits even close to muzzle-on, just like the legendary story of the M1911 that was dropped on a ship's steel deck from somwhere over 12 feet up...
*That's the amphibian, not the spineless and almost Godless European subhuman.
ChiefThunderstick
Member
Potato
Yeah how about monster magnet bad for ferrous type materials, must leave somewhere far from monster magnet. The power of the magnet is such that it could easily rip a steel plate from your head and leave your white and grey matter scattered all over the MR suite floor. Don't get one done if you have schrapnel lodged anywhere on you person either.
Yeah how about monster magnet bad for ferrous type materials, must leave somewhere far from monster magnet. The power of the magnet is such that it could easily rip a steel plate from your head and leave your white and grey matter scattered all over the MR suite floor. Don't get one done if you have schrapnel lodged anywhere on you person either.
Mark in California
Member
One Question Please?
How did the weapon re-cock its self after firing if the safety was on and the slide was locked in place?
How did the weapon re-cock its self after firing if the safety was on and the slide was locked in place?
PotatoJudge
Member
Looks like Ti is paramagnetic, not exactly non-ferrous.
Still, it is less attrracted to magnets and lighter in weight, so it seems like it would impact a primer with less force in this situation.
"Naw, I won't buy the Ti firing pin suggestion b/c the flying-gun-inertia-powered firing pin theory. Magnetism won't affect that."
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. The gun still has the inertial firing pin, and is also a firing pin that will be pulled forward to the magnet with a good bit of force.
You bing up a good point that a non-magnetic fp block would do it, and sounds like the best solution to this guns firing in MRIs epidemic. Think of the children.
Mark, the slide didn't cycle. Only the firing pin and firing pin safety were moved- that's really all it takes to make it go bang. The hammer/sear/thumb safety/slide never moved. No need to re-cock.
Still, it is less attrracted to magnets and lighter in weight, so it seems like it would impact a primer with less force in this situation.
"Naw, I won't buy the Ti firing pin suggestion b/c the flying-gun-inertia-powered firing pin theory. Magnetism won't affect that."
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. The gun still has the inertial firing pin, and is also a firing pin that will be pulled forward to the magnet with a good bit of force.
You bing up a good point that a non-magnetic fp block would do it, and sounds like the best solution to this guns firing in MRIs epidemic. Think of the children.
Mark, the slide didn't cycle. Only the firing pin and firing pin safety were moved- that's really all it takes to make it go bang. The hammer/sear/thumb safety/slide never moved. No need to re-cock.
How about a big sign saying "Keep Your Freakin' Gun Out of the Magnet!!!".
This is one where a human-factors fix makes more sense than a technological one. And I'd strongly recommend that anyone who carries leave the gun at home if the day's plans call for MRI. The miniscule extra risk of getting murdered during a car trip and half an hour in the hospital is probably worth it :banghead:
This is one where a human-factors fix makes more sense than a technological one. And I'd strongly recommend that anyone who carries leave the gun at home if the day's plans call for MRI. The miniscule extra risk of getting murdered during a car trip and half an hour in the hospital is probably worth it :banghead:
It never "de-cocked". The hammer, sear, trigger and safety all remained stationary. Only the firing pin slammed forward due to inertia and the magnet's pulling the firing pin block out of position. It was basically a striker fired, single shot pistol at that point.
Mark in California
Member
Oh, I Feel So Stupid
Thanks
Thanks
Cosmoline
Member
Lucky he didn't have to buy a new machine!
It reminds me of the plane crash site where the autopsy found a .45 slug inside the pilot, fired from the front seat passenger. But it wasn't sabotage, it turns out the post-crash fire had cooked off the round.
It reminds me of the plane crash site where the autopsy found a .45 slug inside the pilot, fired from the front seat passenger. But it wasn't sabotage, it turns out the post-crash fire had cooked off the round.
qlajlu
Member
I wondered about that too. I would like to examine the primer on the brass and compare it to a primer from a standard fired round to try to determine how hard the FP struck it. Did it get any extra umf from the magnetic field or was it struck just hard enough to light it up?Grump said:
All in all I would say that the investigation was very thorough and the person writing the report was very informative and factual without being judgemental. The only discrepancy I noticed was where the empty casing was continually called the cartridge.
The media could take a lesson here.
10 Ring Tao
Member
I work around these bad boys all the time. No metal means no metal.
Fascinating read on something I've occasionally wondered about.
Fascinating read on something I've occasionally wondered about.
I was wondering about that. Lots of electricity generally means the likelihood of radio frequency emissions, but the magnetic field is also supposed to be strong enough to make molecules in your body move around(the resonance from said movement is what is used to make the picture). If it was strong enough to set off the primer, then that would be that.
Well, somebody paid a lot of money there, because the article says they had to 'power down' the magnet.
Now those magnets are supercooled by helium gas. You can't just flick a switch at the wall and have the magnet switched off. If the gas is there, it is a permanent magnet. The emergency procedure to cut the field is known as a quench. It results in venting of the helium gas into the room and out of whatever ventilation ducts they have, leading to the exterior. After the quench the machine is unusable. The manufacturer has to regas and recalibrate that unit. It is no simple job and costs a great deal of money. A colleague of mine was telling me what happened when he quenched a magnet here in London, about 5 years ago. The costs to regas and calibrate it were in the order of £30,000 !!! In addition to that, if the quench happens while people are still in the room, the helium displaces the oxygen with such force and so rapidly that if you don't get down, you may suffocate. You have to crawl out of there (or hold your breath and run).
If you want to see how strong that magnet is, have a look at what happened to my camera when I crawled into a 1.5 T unit (same strength as in the article) to test whether bullets were ferrous or not:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001296
By the way, those frog levitations were done on units with more than 8 T fields. The current limit for medical MRIs is 3T. There are also RF frequency limits because the RF frequencies can heat up the tissues.
All in all, an MRI unit is not something you want to jerk around with
CFriesen, thanks very much for that link.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Note the deliciously neutral language in the article, which is so rare:
Isn't it pathetic that the use of neutral, non condemnatory language regarding armed civilians by the MSM and other 3rd parties is so rare that it merits pointing out?
Isn't it pathetic that the use of neutral, non condemnatory language regarding armed civilians by the MSM and other 3rd parties is so rare that it merits pointing out?
QuarterBoreGunner
Member
almost...yeah that's the part that bothers me.
And another thing; is just me or does it look like the gun is still in the holster in this picture? That makes sense. The LEO removes the holster and it goes flying...
WOW....that said.
It was part negligence on the MRI Tech. and staff. You CANNOT enter an MRI area with anything metallic. It will do just as the weapon did. People have been killed in MRI's by steel oxygen bottles. They make aluminum ones specifically for use in areas such as this. Keeping metal out of the MRI area is a huge thing and it is drilled into the staff, including us here in the Engineering Dept. over and over and over. The weapon should have never gotten close to the MRI, not because it was a weapon, but because it was METAL! Very dangerous.
It was part negligence on the MRI Tech. and staff. You CANNOT enter an MRI area with anything metallic. It will do just as the weapon did. People have been killed in MRI's by steel oxygen bottles. They make aluminum ones specifically for use in areas such as this. Keeping metal out of the MRI area is a huge thing and it is drilled into the staff, including us here in the Engineering Dept. over and over and over. The weapon should have never gotten close to the MRI, not because it was a weapon, but because it was METAL! Very dangerous.
There are exhaust fans tied into monitors which activate when a rupture occurs. There is also a "panic button" for bringing it on as a secondary safety option.( required by code) It closes the return air ductwork for the A/C system and opens the outside exhaust as well as bringing on the fan to pull the gas outside. A.C. - Engineering, Baptist Hospital
Odd Job gives a good description of the system.
acdodd
Member
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An MR can be ramped down without losing all the cryogens.
They connect a large power supply and slowly decrease the power in the magnet until there the magnetic field dwindles. There will be some loss of cryogens but not a total loss as in a quench.
Things get sucked into MR systems all too often. Sometimes with fatal results like the kid that was kill by an O2 bottle that was taken into the room. Flew into the boar and hit him in the head.
Buffers and buckets are common projectiles.
I have a big job to do in our MR room and if I'm not real careful I may wind up on the 6 o'clock news.
Ramping down and back up is still expensive and usually only the OEM can do it.
AC
They connect a large power supply and slowly decrease the power in the magnet until there the magnetic field dwindles. There will be some loss of cryogens but not a total loss as in a quench.
Things get sucked into MR systems all too often. Sometimes with fatal results like the kid that was kill by an O2 bottle that was taken into the room. Flew into the boar and hit him in the head.
Buffers and buckets are common projectiles.
I have a big job to do in our MR room and if I'm not real careful I may wind up on the 6 o'clock news.
Ramping down and back up is still expensive and usually only the OEM can do it.
AC
This ACR white paper explains all the basic hazards and safety measures to do with MR scanning. There is a nice checklist at the end, so you can see what questions you may be asked prior to a scan:
http://www.acr.org/s_acr/bin.asp?CID=3260&DID=12183&DOC=FILE.PDF
http://www.acr.org/s_acr/bin.asp?CID=3260&DID=12183&DOC=FILE.PDF
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