"Cop's" style shows & comparison to CCW fears

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MattC

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I was watching one of those shows with video footage from camera mounts in police cars. After a chase ends in crashing the fleeing vehicle, police often (and rightly) jump out with guns drawn on the driver.

But then I saw some footage where the police would converge on the crashed car from multiple sides (again, rightly). One particular scare to me was when the suspect started crawling out of the vehicle and the police were running at him from three sides, one-hand aiming their handguns. Two of the officers were opposite each other and were at least as likely to shoot one another as they were the perp. I’m not saying I can do a better job—I have no idea how I would react in that situation until I was placed in it.

Compare this to CCW concerns, though. I’ve heard complaints about if CCW was allowed here in Wisconsin, and somebody does use it to stop a threat, they aren’t trained like police are to not shoot someone else in the process.

This led me to a question. Does anyone have statistics on LEO friendly fire/unintentional targets in order to help counter this anti-CCW argument?
 
"I’ve heard complaints about if CCW was allowed here in Wisconsin, and somebody does use it to stop a threat, they aren’t trained like police are to not shoot someone else in the process"

Yup. Anytime they have CCW in a state, the streets run with blood.

Most states have training required for a CC permit - to make sure you know how to shoot, to know when you should and shouldn't shoot, and to make you less likely to shoot the wrong guy - doesn't mean it won't happen, of course.

I think there was some incident in the Northeast (that being any state north of Virginian and East of the Mississippi) - NY, NJ, Pennsylvania, maybe - where cops were blasting away and shot one of their own.
 
Geronimo45 said:
Yup. Anytime they have CCW in a state, the streets run with blood.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, I'm pointing out opinions other than my own and am looking for statistics to counter the under-informed argument. Thanks for the news about the Northeast incident. Do you have an approximate date to help a search for that?
 
The media likes to play the "they are the only ones professional enough" mentality so I'm sure anytime a CCW holder accidentally shoots an innocent it'll be all over the news. I can't recall any incidents off the top of my head.

I have a feeling CCW holders in general tend to me more cautious about the 4 rules because they don't have the immunity LEO's have when it comes to friendly fire or shooting someone that wasn't a "threat of great bodily harm or death". Before anyone pulls up an isolated case note I said "in general" :eek:
 
Its true that newer officers recieve more training then what a typical CCW course would require. As part of my state certification in 2 months, I will have to do simulated shootouts with other people, with simunitions. Thats something that a average gun owner wont be able to do. So in theory I will be better prepared for bad situations.

Here comes the problem however. Even with training many people who find themselves in bad situations develop tunnel vision. Thats a very common thing with police officers, you see it all the time in videos where an officer is shooting as someone without realizing another officer is behind the target he is shooting at. This can get better with training, however since cops are human, they can have it just like anyone else.

If your looking for some clear cut, direct answer that says "police training makes someone never make a mistake, such as shooting someone that isn't the suspect" it doesn't exist. The best that you can say is that a LEO is better trained and better prepared to fact bad situations, then an average person. Even with training people make mistakes, it happens.

In my opinion the best way to counter that argument, is to show how CCWers shooting someone other then the threat has really been a non issue in states that have CCW. If people counter that by saying something stupid like "Well just because some states don't have a problem, doesn't mean we wont" I would bring up the fact that there are only 2 states left that don't have CCW laws. Wisconsin borders Mn, Iowa, and Mi, all of which have ccw laws in some form. Considering they aren't that far of a drive, its not like thoes states are completely diffrent from Wisconsin.
 
It takes training and experience to work together as a unit. Unless an officer is a member of a tactical team of some type, he's used to working alone or with one or maybe two other officers.

There is usually no communication of any kind of rudimentary plan for the end of a chase. Everyone is pumped full of adrenaline and focused on the bad guy. Tunnel vision, the natural desire of several type A personalities who all want to subdue the suspect often takes over. Add in the fact that often a chase crosses several jurisdictions and the officers who are present at the end may never have even spoken to eah other before, much less worked together and it's a wonder that we don't have more blue on blue incidents then we do.

I kind of doubt that you could take a bunch of CCW holders and put them in that situation and expect them to perform any better. Working together as a team is something that requires a lot of training and practice. No group of people who've never trained together will perform well in that situation.

Jeff
 
There is usually no communication of any kind of rudimentary plan for the end of a chase.
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Interesting ... as volunteer wildland firefighters, we are constantly told to stop, size-up the incident, form a plan, and brief everyone before taking action when we arrive on scene.

Not like all that really happens - but that's how we are supposed to do it. :rolleyes:

Often the best we do is "you take the right flank and we'll take the left flank and try to catch the head of the fire" ;)

I'm sort of surprised that LEOs don't have some similar instruction/training :confused:
 
Gotta remember, cops on COPS can try to play for the camera, conciously or subconsiously, and may do things to get in the camera view they would not do under "normal" circumstances. At least, I am REALLY hoping so!
 
Anytime they have CCW in a state, the streets run with blood.

That's why we can carry in FLA, the rain washes it all away!
 
I have a feeling CCW holders in general tend to me more cautious about the 4 rules because they don't have the immunity LEO's have when it comes to friendly fire or shooting someone that wasn't a "threat of great bodily harm or death". Before anyone pulls up an isolated case note I said "in general"
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I don't know about the "immunity" part, but I agree with your first part about CCW holders. :)

You have to remember that in every police academy there are quite a few trainees who have never handled a gun before. They are given a bunch of concentrated training, to try and ingrain the Rules to keep them handling the guns safe. Now take this "trained professional" years down the road who lives with this tool 24/7, but only get reminder-like training a few hours a year and some bad habits have been made and ingrained naturally. Complacency sets in. It is just a "tool" to them and sometimes gets neglected (I've seen a picture of bulged frame of a Glock caused by habitual lack of cleaning and use, and heard horror stories from the local SO trainers). There are not gun enthusiasts!

Now, would you trust this professional to point at a perp located between the two of you at the end of an unpredictable car/foot chase? At a point like this, (should you even realize the crossfire situation) all you can do is remove yourself from that line of fire. In front of a camera is the last place to point out an officers potentially deadly mistake when you can be a part of the blame. Can you even point out in a line up which cops are not gun enthusiasts? (probably less than 10% of them anyways). Everybody makes mistakes, I just hope I never make one that becomes deadly from my gun, car, pets, etc.

Justin
 
I've taken courses--in which there were civilians, some military, and several law enforcement officers--that simulate a few of those situations. Such courses are not for beginners or even for people who are expert at putting little holes in stationery targets at known distances.

These scenarios do induce adrenaline rush, produce tunnel vision, and create auditory exclusion. And accuracy is vital when confronted with the need to shoot a villain who holds a hostage as a shield while innocent people are milling around behind them, but the need is for accuracy under pressure when nothing is predictable. Nevertheless, the reality is that we have to play the hand that is dealt us, and it's necessary to learn to function under such conditions.

What choice is there--either for law enforcement or for civilians who want to be able to defend their own lives and their families lives?

It doesn't much bother me when legislators are concerned that civilians might misuse a handgun in self-defense. It's awfully nice of them to be concerned.

But I would be much more sympathetic to such legislators if each of them would volunteer to throw their own bodies in front of mine in the event of a murderous attack, and would hang around me so that they could really do it. I sure would be grateful to any legislator who gave up his or her life for mind. I most certainly would attend the funeral of any legislator who did that for me, and I would send flowers and a condolence card too.

The trouble is that people like Nancy Pelosi, Carolyn McCarthy, Michael Bloomberg, and their associates never seem to make that offer. They want their constituents to risk death or grave bodily harm instead of being allowed the means to defend themselves against a predator with superior force.

There's something wrong with that.
 
Armoredman,

I think the exact opposite. Those guys know they are on camera, therefore they should be on their best behavior. I can only imagine what goes on when they are not under public scrutiny.
 
Well, a licensed civilian should not be engaging in car chases or any other such activity. If the gun is fired in self-defense, some consideration should be given, if possible, to the impact area so that you don't shoot innocent persons. If absolutely necessary, and there is no other choice, the usual rule is to fire and hope for the best.

As to police shooting one another, or themselves, unfortunately there have been many instances. No matter what the press or the anti-gun lobby says, police are not superbly trained supermen and they make mistakes and do stupid things like other mortals.

On the other hand, in this area, a deputy sheriff who had been taken under fire by a wanted criminal spent several minutes, at considerable risk, maneuvering himself into a position where he could get a clear shot without endangering other people in the area.

As to drawing guns at the end of a car chase, that is proper procedure. The officer(s) won't know what the person has done or what risk he/she poses, only that the driver fled from the police. Aside from the fact that failure to stop is itself a crime, the assumption by police has to be that an innocent person does not lead police on a car chase, and that the driver is probably fleeing because he/she committed a serious crime.

Jim
 
Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst...

Check out this unfortunate case of self defense:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/

Everything I've read about the case indicates the CCW was justified shooting in self defense, but nevertheless he has been convicted of second degree murder.
 
I think there was some incident in the Northeast (that being any state north of Virginian and East of the Mississippi) - NY, NJ, Pennsylvania, maybe - where cops were blasting away and shot one of their own.
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That happened in Baltimore County, Maryland, just a week or two ago. Fortunately, the cop's vest saved him, but there was quite a fuss about it in the news.
 
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