Corrosive Ammo and the "Shiny Nail" test

[230RN]

I don't know about you, but just because a box of milsurp amm is labeled noncorrosive, I, like Doubting Thomas, refuse to believe it without verification.

All it takes is one party in the succession of transfers between factory and the shelf in your local store to say "it's noncorrosive" for everybody further along the line of transfers to believe it.

Because they want to.

So I was trying to figure out an easy way to test it, and toyed with the idea of pulling the bullet on a doubtful round, and blowing the primer against a sheet of clean non-stainless steel. I was thinking of using a sizing die as a temporary "chamber" for this test, and then cleaning the die out to prevent the die itself from rusting if it indeed turned out to be corrosive ammo.

Quite by accident, I found this passage regarding the same problem:

FROM:

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-41403.html

Schuetzenman03-28-2002, 01:34 PM

Noncorrosive . . . I wouldn't say that without running a corrosion test. Take that pulled case and find a flathead nail that will fit in the case neck or grind or file a flat head nail down until it will slip into the neck. Polish on at least 120 paper to expose bare steel and get any rust proofing off. Don't touch it but make sure its dusted off, no sanding grit left.

Next clamp the nail standing up in a vise about 1.5 inches. Then slip the case down over it and take a punch and a hammer and pop the primer on the nail. Wear ear and eye protection, primers can throw some stuff and they are quite loud inside.

If you don't have a vice, drive the nail into a piece of 2 X 4 board or any board that will hold it up well enough that you can fire the primer against the nail and it won't come out. Remember don't get your finger prints on the flat sanded surface. It could influence the results.

If in 3 or 4 days you don't see rust on the flat head of the nail you don't have to worry. This is referred to as the Shiny Nail Test.

The only problem I can see is that in the chapter on corrosion and ammunition developments, Hatcher reveals that corrosion might not start until the relative humidity (RH) goes above about 50%, and if the test is conducted in, say, Colorado, where the humididty rarely hits 50% for any length of time, the test may give false results.

And there you would be with a gun which remained rust free because you fired this supposedly non-corrosive ammo in it, and some time later the RH bumps up beyond 50% and wham, you've got rust all over the firearm.

Comments, other suggestions on testing for corrosiveness of ammunition? (Assume I don't like cleaning firearms and recommendations about cleaning after every use are duly noted but are not part of the question domain.)

Has anyone here actually used this "Shiny Nail" test?

--Terry

 

[Javelin]

Great post. The only thing I find frustrating is that you have to buy the ammo to test it. Memorizing all of the various known corrosive brands for your caliber is not really feasible though I know many people do it.

 

[230RN]

Javelin:

I don't mind cleaning a firearm if I know I've fired corrosive ammo in it. But I want to shoot supposedly non-corrosive ammo with confidence that I won't get an unpleasant surprise the next time the RH hits 50% -- a week or a month later.

 

[W.E.G.]

You don't have to build some elaborate fixture to blast primer spew on a nail.

Grind the head of a hardware store nail until it is shiny.

Stick the nail in a cardboard box. No hammer required.

Pull a bullet, dump the powder, and chamber the empty case in your rifle.

Make sure the bore is clean and dry. You don't want to blow a cocktail of bore solvents on the nail.

Hold the muzzle against the bare nail head, and pull the trigger.

Stick the box on the back of the toilet in the bathroom, or next to the laundry sink in the basement. That should be plenty humid unless you live in a desert.

Clean your rifle, and watch the nail for rust.

Have fun with the gunpowder.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Has anyone here actually used this "Shiny Nail" test?

About in the late 80's I tried some corrossive 7.62x39 and some Chi Com non-corrosive 9x18.

The corrosive ammo rusted the nail lightly only about half way.

The "non-corossive" ammo badly rusted the whole length of the nail.

After that I considered all Russian and Chi Com ammo corrosive.

 

[Zundfolge]

When it comes to Russian, Chinese or otherwise 3rd world ammo, I've always recommended the "Assume its corrosive unless it says 'non-corrosive' on the side of the box ... and even then treat it like its corrosive" method.

Boiling water is cheap ... might as well take no chances.

 

[PTK]

230RN

Golden (heck, ALL of CO) sure is dry. I fired a few BP 12ga shells through one of my shotguns and didn't clean it for two weeks. I got tired of waiting for rust to form and so I cleaned it properly.

I don't fear rust here in CO anymore, that's for sure.

Back to the topic. I'm a lot like Zundfolge in this regard, ANY non-US ammo (except for those well known to be ok, like GP11) is suspect, even Wolf and the like. Cleaning properly takes all of five extra minutes. Cheap insurance, if you ask me.

 

[ColinthePilot]

my SKS gets scrubbed every time I shoot her. no corrosion problems.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Take a nail, polish it up and set it on your workbench for 3 or 4 days. It'll probably form rust there too, especially if your humidity is high.

 

[Cannonball888]

When it comes to Russian, Chinese or otherwise 3rd world ammo, I've always recommended the "Assume its corrosive unless it says 'non-corrosive' on the side of the box ... and even then treat it like its corrosive" method.

Yup. Corrosive milsurp ammo is too much of a bargain to pass up. It'll harm your gun only if you are too lazy to clean after shooting. Since the corrosive salts are water soluble it's best to clean the barrel out with water or Windex first then clean as you normally would.

 

[jrfoxx]

I'm in agreement with those who just assume all non-NATO surplus is corrosive, and clean accordingly.It really only adds a few extra minutes/steps to do so, and it's the safest way to be....well, safe.For NATO surplus, all I ever see is 60's or newer (with the exception of 2 boxes of LC WWII M2 AP I have), so there's no worries with any of it.As for testing ammo if you so desire, just pull the bullet and powder and fire the primer only case out of a bolt rifle (dont have to worry about possible corrosives in a gas sytem to clean out that way) at anything that will rust easily, and put it in a normal or possibly "worst LIKELY" case environment for your area and see what happens.If you dont want to fire even 1 possibly corrosive prime out of one of your guns, you could PROBABLY just put the primer only case nice and tight in a vice with the opening unobstructed, pointed at a piece of rustable metal and whack the primer.I cant imagine just a primer would have the force to dislodge the case or case any possible issues.I have some of the old Speer plastic cases and bullets that take just a large magnum pistol primer to fire indoors for plinking, and if the cheap plastic can handle it, a brass case should just fine.They dont have that much power. moves the plasit bullet only like 250-300 fps out of a 4" revolver (paintball and airsoft guns meet or exceed that velocity even in the cheap ones.) BUT, YMMV, I have never tried it, etc, etc, disclaimer, etc.

 

[moxie]

Take the box of ammo and put it on the northeast corner of your loading bench, preferably on a Tuesday. Four days later, if moss is growing on the southwest corner of the ammo box, the ammo inside is corrosive. This is a direct result of the allantropic attraction of unobtanium to di-hydrogen monoxide (DHMO) found in all corrosive ammunition manufactured since August 3, 1938. For details, see the excellent 1977 thesis by Klein, Gross, Ost, and Oest: "Nuanced Anal-Retentive Firearms Fetishes in Post-Modern American Men." The conclusion of this blu-ribbon group was:

"Never let the sun set on a dirty gun."

 

[230RN]

Pull a bullet, dump the powder, and chamber the empty case in your rifle. (snip) Hold the muzzle against the bare nail head, and pull the trigger.

Exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

When it comes to Russian, Chinese or otherwise 3rd world ammo, I've always recommended the "Assume its corrosive unless it says 'non-corrosive' on the side of the box ... and even then treat it like its corrosive" method.

Exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

Cleaning properly takes all of five extra minutes.

Exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

The above three answers are outside of the question-domain, but thanks.

(I want an absolute determination of corrosiveness based onmy own personally-conducted tests --without firing a primed case in the rifle (or in a die.)

XDKingslayer: Good point. I wonder how one would separate those variables (regular rusting versus rusting due to corrosive ammo). Use two separate nails? Your response indicates why I asked the original question. Thank you!

M2Carbine, thanks. That was the kind of info I was looking for. How did you conduct the test? Thank you!

PTK Re CO RH: Yeah, I've been spoiled by Colorado's nose-pickin' RH. Makes your eyeballs shrivel up sometimes. I remember, living in NYC (where RH "lives at" 90%), seeing a beautiful Colt Commercial 1911 with a forensic-quality fingerprint permanently corroded into the slide.

-- Terry

 

[PercyShelley]

Does anyone know what the priming compound is in corrosive ammunition? Perhaps one could rig up some sort of chemical test based on a replacement reaction to test whether a primer is corrosive.

Of course, most corrosive ammo is berdan primed, making that rather difficult.

That should be plenty humid unless you live in a desert.

What's your definition of desert? Boulder, CO is pretty dry.

Anyhow, if you do decide to run a shiny nail test, make sure you have a control nail that hasn't had primer compound spewed onto it.

 

[Titan6]

(I want an absolute determination of corrosiveness based onmy own personally-conducted tests --without firing a primed case in the rifle (or in a die.)

That would be a trick. What causes the ammo to be corrosive? Mercury? How do you test whatever is in the ammo that causes the corrosion is the answer. You would need to take a bullet apart but it could be done fairly easily.

 

[230RN]

Usually what makes a primer corrosive is chlorate compounds in it, like potassium chlorate. This converts to salt on firing, which is hygroscopic, and causes the rusting. (The potassium chlorate itself is moderately hygroscopic as well.)

I don't feel the need to make a chemical test, although it's technically possible.

What mercury does is alloy with the brass in the cartridge case, making it brittle, and therefore unsuitable for any reloading after the first firing. Mercury fulminate primers, in and of themselves, are not corrosive because of any mercury. They just screw up the brass, is all.

Since the US always reloaded, that's why we went to Boxer priming with the one flash hole (easy to decap), whereas in Europe, they never reloaded much, and used the Berdan method of priming, with the anvil as part of the cartridge case primer pocket, and two (sometimes three) itsy-bitsy teeny-weenie flash holes on each side of the anvil. (I kept thinking of polka-dot bikinis as I wrote that.)

The off-center teeny-tiny itsy-bitsy flash holes make it nearly impossible to decap using a punch. You need either a teeny-tiny itsy-bitsy little beer can opener to pry the old primer out, or you can use hydraulic methods to decap them. Messy as all get out.

As I recall, the Boxer (reloadable) priming method was invented in Europe, and the Berdan (not-reloadable) method was developed here. Ironic, eh?

OK, I guess I shall do some 'sperimenting, bearing in mind XDKingslayer's suggestion that a control Shiny Nail is needed. (This was touched on by Percy Shelley as well.)

Titan 6, the original source material described the method of firing a disassembled round with a punch. See quote in Post #1.

And jrfoxx is right --it's not that big a deal to set off a primer, but goggles, gloves, and earplugs are recommended.

--Terry

 

[Spyvie]

Take the box of ammo and put it on the northeast corner of your loading bench, preferably on a Tuesday. Four days later, if moss is growing on the southwest corner of the ammo box, the ammo inside is corrosive. This is a direct result of the allantropic attraction of unobtanium to di-hydrogen monoxide (DHMO) found in all corrosive ammunition manufactured since August 3, 1938. For details, see the excellent 1977 thesis by Klein, Gross, Ost, and Oest: "Nuanced Anal-Retentive Firearms Fetishes in Post-Modern American Men." The conclusion of this blu-ribbon group was:

"Never let the sun set on a dirty gun."

I literally LOL

Thank You for that!

 

[TEDDY]

corrosive ammo

if I can fire it I use a bolt out of a gun.
RCBS makes a berdan decapper.
mercury is not used now,it was used up to smokless powder.then it was found cases could not be reloaded.
potassium clorate is the
230rn: get your facts straight.mercury did not bother black powder guns .we used berdan primers.but changed to boxer because of the ease of decaping.
but you can decap berdan easy.except those dddd french 8 mm lebels.
lead stifenate?? is whats used now and their changing that.

 

[230RN]

Teddy said,

potassium clorate is the
230rn: get your facts straight.mercury did not bother black powder guns .

I believe it was not a big problem with black powder loads in brass cases because the enormous amount of BP residue diluted the effects of the mercury on the brass.

I'm not too familiar with BP loads, so I am sorry I did not explicitly limit my remarks to smokeless powder brass cartridge loads.

Thank you for pointing out that error of omission to me.

-- Terry