Cougar Attack

[bandk]

I have searched the forum previously for opinions regarding this matter to assist in taking precautions for family and self. First, thanks to all who have put in their $0.02. Second, happy new year.

I found this recent news story...

[URL="http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100103/bc_dog_saves_boy_100103/20100103/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome"]

...and thought it would be interesting for discussion.


My first thought: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. However, despite a shot in the rump, the animal did not give. Because of the following link, one could conclude a towel will do better....

[URL="http://www.vancouversun.com/health/cougars+attack+young+boys+within+week/2405390/story.html"][URL="http://www.vancouversun.com/health/cougars+attack+young+boys+within+week/2405390/story.html"]

On the other hand, choice of caliber is a natural question. I searched Royal Canadian Mounted Police + standard side arm and found: 9mm. Thus, my second question regards choice of ammunition: FMJ, soft point, JHP, wadcutter (or variation thereof). So, apart from choosing 357 or 44mag, what options are there for ammunition in the 9mm and 38special calibers.

Thanks

 

[mrjohnston]

I'd go with JHP's, cougar's are wild and mean, but it's not like a bear where you have large amounts of fur/fat to punch through. I would want large quantities of lead deposited in a short amount of time, and of course shot placement. Although a full size .45 double stack would be my first choice, once agian stuffed with JHP's.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

federal hydrashock 147gr 38+P+

 

[Mr.510]

This is a pretty good thread on handguns for cougar defense:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=462482&highlight=cougar

While you are incredibly unlikely to be attacked by a cougar I personally strongly suggest you carry something more powerful than a 9mm in cougar country. Chances are by the time you know there's a cougar in the area it will already be on top of you and will either be trying to disembowel you or sever your spinal cord at the neck. They are ambush predators and this is what they do.

 

[IdahoLT1]

Cougars usually back down when met with agression. One thing is for certain, DO NOT run. Instincts will kick in and will leave the back of your neck and head exposed. If youre hiking with family and have any children or youngsters, ALWAYS keep them in sight and make sure you get inbetween the cougar and them, if you come into contact. Solitary predators like the cougar usually target what they will view as weaker prey. Children to them will be the easiest game. Young and sick/injured mountain lions are usually the cause of most attacks. Sometimes its territorial, sometimes its to protect food/offspring.

If encountered by a cougar a 9mm, IMO, would probably suffice. I would go with the heaviest JHP you can get for that caliber and have it +P rated.

Pepper spray is also a good option. I know that alot of the chest thumpers on here say they will only resort to using a firearm, but pepper spray can be accessed alot quicker. Something like Kimbers pepper blaster would be ideal and relatively inexpensive. Its going to be lightweight and can be carried in a front pocket. Access will generally be alot quicker than drawing a firearm from a holster and in a cougar attack, speed is what can determine the outcome. You wont need a "bear strength" OC spray. Most of those are alot heavier to have more spray and a further range. OC spray thats effective on humans will be effective on mountain lions.

 

[Manco]

In my opinion (and I'm not an expert ), anything that can stop/put down a human, given good shot placement, can put down a cougar. If forced to use a handgun, use a quality JHP in your 9mm (I prefer heavy rounds but any should do the trick), and a JHP or LHP in your .38 Special as long as it doesn't expand too much and gets penetration to 12" or more, otherwise use a semiwadcutter (SWC).

 

[berettaprofessor]

And here I thought the way to deal with a "Cougar" attack was to submit and enjoy her....and to try not to feel used afterwards....

(Someone had to be the first...for once it was my turn!)

 

[oneounceload]

Cougar attacks, (at least the ones in the Sierras that happened when I lived there) typically occur from above and behind. If you're hiking through rimrock country, keep an eye upwards and occasionally over your shoulder, especially with small kids. Cats are opportunistic and will go after small, easy prey first.

 

[bandk]

Thanks for the replies.
My apologies that the links did not go "blue"/live.
I believe the comments from IdahoLT1 are very consistent with the effectiveness of Mom and her towel.

 

[MinnMooney]

Pepper spray is fast and it works. I see one poster said that you don't need the more powerful bear spray. Why not? I have some for my trips to Montana for Elk hunting and if I was in known cougar country, I'd carry the most powerful spray AND a decently powerful sidearm like a .45 ACP, 10mm, .357Mag., "The Judge" or even a .44Mag snubnose.

P.S. I'm not religious at all. I have owned 3 fantastic dogs in my life. If there is a God and he sent someone "in his image" to earth then what he sent was a dog. This cougar story is yet another example of how dogs are a near perfect being. I have never tried to "measure up" to another human being but I try everyday to be worthy of my English Setter. My 2c.

 

[Leanwolf]

IDAHO LT1 -" Cougars usually back down when met with agression. "

Not necessarily. Aggression against a mountain lion didn't work in the incident below.

Also note the "preparedness" of the woman who was involved with the attack.

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20091229/VALLEYNEWS/912299991/1083&ParentProfile=1074

L.W.

 

[yelohamr]

You don't have to be faster than the couger. Just faster than the people with you.

 

[kda]

The number of people who mix up the words "than" and "then" boggles the mind...

Well, than, what about it bothers you so much? Yes, I know.

 

[EddieNFL]

I cannot reach into my pocket and employ pepper spray as quickly as I can draw and fire my sidearm.

I'm familiar with the effects of pepper spray, but, on the occasions it isn't effective, does the victim have time to resort to other methods?

IMO you employ a weapon at least equal to that used by your attacker.

 

[TonyDedo]

At first I thought this thread was about older women gone wild. What a disappointment.

I grew up in the Sierras, and there was always a Mini 14 within reach of the back deck for coyote and the occasional cougar. When we'd go hiking, my father carried a .357 revolver. Never really had a problem with them myself, but there were always stories in the local paper.

 

[NMGonzo]

.357 of the heaviest bullet you can find.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

cougar's are wild and mean

Well most natural animals in the wild are well, yeah, wild. As for being mean, they really aren't. They can be quiet and very sneaky, efficient killers through ferocious attacks, but they aren't apt to randomly attacking humans because they have had a bad day.

 

[RETG]

I have come across quite a few Cougars (mountain lions, etc.) and never had to shoot one. I have found two quick rounds in the dirt in front of them makes them hightail it to the next county.
Now a bear? Seen 'em from a distance, but if they try and have me for a tent wrapped midnight snack, I will shoot them in an instant; with a S&W 500 (that I take and sleep with in bear country).

 

[Ike Arumba]

Now a bear? Seen 'em from a distance, but if they try and have me for a tent wrapped midnight snack

That reminds me of the Far Side cartoon in which two polar bears are outside an igloo. One says to the other, "I just love these things! Crunchy on the outside, with a chewy center!"

 

[leadcounsel]

Bear repellant.

 

[RustyHammer]

Couger attack ... I was waiting to hear about an older woman at a college bar.

Leadcounsel is right ... Bear repellant. If that doesn't work, someone with you that you can easily out run!

 

[bandk]

Ok, the balance of opinion appears to lean towards the magnum calibers. This is fine, of course, unless one has problems handling them or bothering to carry them at all. I think either is true for many as they are heavy, have too much recoil (esp. in the lighter options) or both. So, I remain curious as to options in the more commonly manageable calibers.

Since the RCMP officer (assuming he had a 9mm) hit the cougar once, without effect, I am curious as to the forum's opinions as to whether stopping power could be improved with other specific ammo choices in 9mm or 38sp. I wonder if soft point, semiwadcutter, or wadcutter would be better than JHP or FMJ?

Do police officers use FMJ or JHP? Assuming he had JHP, perhaps a hind shot though a winter coat, didn't provide enough of a THUMPin to stop the animal. Does anyone know what RCMP use, the critical piece to this puzzle?

BTW, adding the post and link from Leanwolf, a waving towel remains most effective in reacting in review of actual situations. In summary from these three stories, an incensed mother with a towel is more effective than an unloaded shotgun or a single round from a trained officer. OTOH, I like the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared [in winter near hungry wild animals].

Thanks again for everyone's input, in particular the growing concern regarding other species of cougar and their potential for attack

 

[Backpacker33]

I backpack in the Colorado Rockies almost every summer. Cougars are a relatively new threat there. I have a bro-in-law in Gold Hill CO who keeps me abreast of the latest cougar news, and I spend time talking with the National Forest rangers before I go out on any trail.

Nearly everything you read in this forum is correct. Cougars are predators that spring from cover, hitting from behind. They clamp the neck and tear with their rear claws. They may be driven off by determined yelling and throwing stones, or they may hang on after being shot.

I have had only one cougar experience, and that was last summer while packing around 12,000 feet in the valley east of Tin Cup Pass CO. I was on a trail that I have long thought was perfect for cougars lurking for deer, and always walk it with my holster unbuckled and the Mark I Eyeballs revolving.

This year I saw a flash on the slope above and about a hundred feet ahead of me. In about one second the cat had bounded down to and leapt over the trail and out of sight down the mountain. The area is moderately forested on a steep slope.

I didn’t have time to draw my revolver or even say “SH*T!” before it was gone.

Sooo, I don’t believe pepper spray would be any help except if a cat was already on someone else and I was right there to spray it. Frankly, if I was that close, I would shoot. I do carry pepper spray, but it is my second level of defense, mainly for any bear that may be enjoying my backpack when I am not wearing it, and for less dangerous if nonetheless annoying critters.

As to caliber, the rangers all say 9mm is plenty for cougars. I ran into a retired ranger in ’04 who carried a Ruger (I think) .40 S&W which he asserted is plenty for black bear, too. All the rangers carry semi-autos nowadays. I’m a bigger fan of revolvers because I know they will fire even if I’m crumpled on top of it with a cougar gnawing on me. All modern semi-autos will not fire if they are the least out of battery. My bro-in-law carries a short-barreled shotgun with buckshot, but he isn’t a backpacker. He asked me for handgun advice and settled on a Ruger Redhawk .44, despite my assuring him a .357 was everything he needed.

I think the key is awareness, by knowing when you are in an area where there might be cougars. Keep everyone close. Don’t let children or smaller people wander and always, ahem, take a friend when going to relieve oneself. Then, *I* recommend a revolver with LeverEvolution ammo, or a heavy hollow point bullet. The holster should be worn outside any coat or cover and be a type that allows a very fast draw.

In the Peoples Republik of Boulder CO, cougars are protected. I wrote the city council a few years ago proposing a city ordinance further protecting them from people they attack, after one nearly nabbed a child. I proposed that the parents should be required to attend sensitivity training to understand the great gift given to them by the cougar choosing their child to feed its cubs. I further proposed that any surviving children should be required to attend such training to teach them that screaming and yelling could hurt the cougar’s feelings and damage its self-esteem.

I haven’t heard whether it came up for a vote.
- Backpacker

 

[oneounceload]

In the Peoples Republik of Boulder CO, cougars are protected. I wrote the city council a few years ago proposing a city ordinance further protecting them from people they attack, after one nearly nabbed a child. I proposed that the parents should be required to attend sensitivity training to understand the great gift given to them by the cougar choosing their child to feed its cubs. I further proposed that any surviving children should be required to attend such training to teach them that screaming and yelling could hurt the cougar’s feelings and damage its self-esteem.

CLASSIC!....

Please send that to all of the newspapers and city councils in California as well.........

 

[Manco]

Ok, the balance of opinion appears to lean towards the magnum calibers. This is fine, of course, unless one has problems handling them or bothering to carry them at all. I think either is true for many as they are heavy, have too much recoil (esp. in the lighter options) or both. So, I remain curious as to options in the more commonly manageable calibers.

It's always easy to suggest something larger, but based on size and build, I still think anything that could stop or kill a human could also stop or kill a cougar, no sweat. Pick a caliber.

Since the RCMP officer (assuming he had a 9mm) hit the cougar once, without effect, I am curious as to the forum's opinions as to whether stopping power could be improved with other specific ammo choices in 9mm or 38sp.

Well, I'm sure it didn't just bounce off. Some humans have taken a lickin' and kept on tickin', too--it depends on where they get hit and what their state of mind happens to be.

I wonder if soft point, semiwadcutter, or wadcutter would be better than JHP or FMJ?

It depends on how much penetration you think you need. Cougars can be fierce creatures at times, but aren't usually larger than most adult humans and aren't nearly as heavily built as bears, for example. Even in the wilderness in cougar country you're more likely to be attacked by two-legged predators, so choose a load for them and it should work fine on cougars, too.

On the other hand, if you're convinced that you need more penetration than any available JHP can give you, then 9mm FMJ should be total overkill in that regard (will probably overpenetrate by a long way unless it hits bone). WC or SWC rounds should do fine in .38 Special, and may even be preferred over 9mm FMJ because of bullet shape, actually, unless you use something like the following:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=268

And if you're really, really worried about penetration as well as wounding potential, then use this load:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

You could probably kill a fair-sized grizzly with that thing.

Do police officers use FMJ or JHP? Assuming he had JHP, perhaps a hind shot though a winter coat, didn't provide enough of a THUMPin to stop the animal. Does anyone know what RCMP use, the critical piece to this puzzle?

I don't know about the RCMP specifically, but virtually all police officers use JHP these days. I can't think of any exceptions off the top of my head, at least with regard to pistols (submachine guns may be a different story). As for the shot in question, I guess it was a flesh wound, in which case one should shoot again and try to hit something important next time.

BTW, adding the post and link from Leanwolf, a waving towel remains most effective in reacting in review of actual situations. In summary from these three stories, an incensed mother with a towel is more effective than an unloaded shotgun or a single round from a trained officer. OTOH, I like the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared [in winter near hungry wild animals].

I don't know why some cougars are more motivated than others at times (level of hunger/desperation, maybe?), but if I had a choice I wouldn't depend on a towel to stop one! It's worth a try, just like waving one's arms and throwing rocks, but I'd stay as ready as possible to draw my weapon if necessary. Hmmm...I wonder how they'd like strobe lights....