Court to BATFE: "You're no rocket scientist"

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This is unfortunate. If they're can't go on hassling the model rocket people - they be hassling gun owners. Personally, I'd rather they spend their time and our money on the rocket people.
 
this is awflly simmalar to when the FAA tried to do much the same to the RC Model Airplane/Jet/Hellecopter Hobbys, what a waste of our tax dollars...:barf:
 
This court decision really does little more than ensure that more taxpayer money will be wasted by the BATFE. The decision basically slapped the BATFE for not providing some type of rationale for its actions that would provide the judges cover for deferring to the agency's expertise.

The decision actually provides the BATFE with a roadmap of the different ways to get beyond "because we said so" and provide the "and here's why" support that would satisfy the court. You can be absolutely sure that the BATFE will go back and cobble together some reasons for its actions and be back in court wasting taxpayer money.

One absolute about government is that they have the people, time, and taxpayer money to keep banging away at an issue until they win.
 
beerslurpy said:
That is really the saddest thing I have read in a while. I sickens me to think how much of my money is being used to fund an attack upon my rights at the hands of the various alphabet soup agencies and their minions.
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If it cheers you up, our tax money does go toward some good things. Libraries, roads, plenty of material for SNL.:)
 
A little sub-story related to this case:

It seems that the ATF wanted to "prove" the dangers of allowing common proles such as ourselves to practice a hobby like model rocketry, so they designed a test. They bought 20 kits from a vendor (who initially refused to sell to them when he found out who they were but was hit with some sort of legal order forcing him to sell) and tried to shoot them off in a salvo from a van to hit a radio-controlled airplane. Well, as fate would have it, the rockets did not fire in a complete slavo, started a fire that ignited other rocket motors within the van, and completley burned the van to a crisp. Radio controlled airplane continued flying merrily along...

This incident was omitted from the court evidence, obviously. Daffy Duck could not have done better!
 
So that's how the Waco fire started.



The only time I'll take the ATF over a bunch of clowns that were rejected by the circus is if I want something burned down to ashes. By mistake.


Remember the A is for Arson
 
Fletchette said:
A little sub-story related to this case:

It seems that the ATF wanted to "prove" the dangers of allowing common proles such as ourselves to practice a hobby like model rocketry, so they designed a test. They bought 20 kits from a vendor (who initially refused to sell to them when he found out who they were but was hit with some sort of legal order forcing him to sell) and tried to shoot them off in a salvo from a van to hit a radio-controlled airplane. Well, as fate would have it, the rockets did not fire in a complete slavo, started a fire that ignited other rocket motors within the van, and completley burned the van to a crisp. Radio controlled airplane continued flying merrily along...

This incident was omitted from the court evidence, obviously. Daffy Duck could not have done better!
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If you have a valid source for that story it would be so great!

I'd like to see documentation though....
 
Documentation?

I'd like to see that video placed on www.thatvideosite.com right next to the Rasta DEA buffoon.

and completely burned the van to a crisp.
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Ya know, I started this thread to remind folks of what dangerous ditzes the folks at F-Troop are. I never expected the thread to be *this* much fun.

Rick
 
Google for:

ATFE rocket burn van

I don't have the bandwidth and I don't think that a video exists outside of the ATFE, but... you'll find lots of stuff on this.
 
Kodiaz said:
If someone finds that video please post it.
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I've searched all around, and I find lots of references to the incident (google on atfe j350 van video) and I find rumors of a video but I can't find the video itself.

Surely this video would be available under the FOIA but that is way more work than I have time for right now.

If anyone can find that video by some chance please use the video hosting service to post it.
 
Here is the Rasta-DEA video -- this is the longest version I've found so far...

http://www.flurl.com/display_entry.php?id=121393

Flurl snags stuff from other websites. This was found at www.ogrish.com

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Here is a rocketry forum (circa 2003) where they discuss the bully tactics of F-troop...

http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-21650.html

ATFE Forces Aerotech To Provide Motors For ATFE Anti-Rocketry Video
link (http://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews#force)

December 20, 2003 - Since the publication by ARSA of the ATFE's attempt to produce an anti-rocketry video on the dangers of hobby rockets to commercial aircraft, vendors and manufacturers have refused to sell to the ATFE. This resulted in a letter from the ATFE to the president of Aerotech, Gary Rosenfield demanding that they deliver 40 G80 motors to the ATFE. The ATFE letter claimed the hobby rocket motors were needed in the interest of national security. The letter claimed Aerotech had no other option under the law and the motors were to be delivered to ATFE agent David Shatzer. Aerotech delivered the motors on December 9th.
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And the torched van rumor:

Did The ATFE Accidently "Torch" Their Van?
link (http://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews#torch)

December 20, 2003 - Rumors have been circulating through the rocketry community for over a month that the ATFE accidently "torched" their van when trying to launch a high power rocket out of it. According to the story, the ATFE and their contractor Applied Research Associates were conducting tests on November 3rd to provide proof that high power rockets could be used to shoot down commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs. (See related story by clicking here (http://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews#atfe).) Apparently, one of the motors failed upon ignition sending a burning gain into a box inside the van. The box contained several propellant grains for further tests that day. The propellant gains inside the box ignited. This resulted in the entire van being destroyed in a roaring inferno as ATFE agents and Applied Research Associate employees stood by and watched. Also, according to the story, video was taken of the test and the resulting fire. To complicate matters further for the ATFE, the van was believed to have been a rental.

ARSA has been trying to confirm or disprove this story, but has not been able to locate anyone with first hand knowledge of the incident. However, Bruce Kelly from the Tripoli Rocketry Association sent out a communication where they state the incident to be true.
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Clarification from one of the Rocket bigwigs on the forum...

=== Tripoli Statement To Members:

1. There is a rumor floating around about ATF "blowing up" a truck during the Utah tests. Most of what is being said is inaccurate. Here is what we know.

ATF, through the USAF, hired an independent contractor to conduct some tests. ATF purchased a number of J350, G80s and other motors for these tests. They also purchased some kits from at least 2 manufacturers. The tests, being conducted here in Utah (off I80, north of mile marker 60) have been taking place most of November through last week.

Supposedly, they affixed a launcher in the back of a van and were launching from the van. As to why, we can only speculate. They also had numerous reloads in the same van while launching. One of the J350s catoed and ignited the rest, burning the van to the ground. (It did not blow up, it just burned up.) So much for hired experts who supposedly should know better.

=== End of Tripoli Statement
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Idiot F-troopers.

Rick
 
Yes. They do, do that, don't they?

Note the talk of the "anti-rocketry video." Of course, this is the rocketeer's take on all of this, but we know that this is F-Troop's stock in trade. Remember that Waco "Showtime! Showtime! Showtime!" was a publicity stunt designed to fit into the Congressional budget sessions where F-Troop was predicted to take a beating for all of their ill-deeds. This anti-rocket docu-drama they were said to be making sounds like something to allow them to justify yet another power grab.

Beware of .gov-types doing research. There is an axiom among policy wonks who know data: "That which gets measured, gets done."

Know it; fear it.

Rick
 
AZRickD said:
Here is the Rasta-DEA video -- this is the longest version I've found so far...

http://www.flurl.com/display_entry.php?id=121393
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Now THAT is hilarious. He just shoots himself in the foot, and tries to continue the safety lecture, but his assistant won't give him any other guns to demo with, and the "management" realizes "the show is over, can you please send someone to get this clown out of here before he shoots someone other than himself?"
 
Merkin.Muffley said:
This is unfortunate. If they're can't go on hassling the model rocket people - they be hassling gun owners. Personally, I'd rather they spend their time and our money on the rocket people.
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Merkin, just so you know, many rocket people are gun people. For the most part we're on the same side. Any victory against the BATFE is a victory for all of us.

RocketMan
NAR Level 2 High Power Rocketeer
 
RocketMan said:
Merkin, just so you know, many rocket people are gun people. For the most part we're on the same side. Any victory against the BATFE is a victory for all of us.
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Senor Rocket, I'm sure Merkin was was jokin'. With a name like Merkin you know he has a sense of humor. I think he was probably using humor to make a point that "gun freedom" may be a bigger issue than just guns and could bring in people who may not even own or care about guns.
 
Originally Posted by RocketMan Merkin, just so you know, many rocket people are gun people.
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Oh, so now you're the expert on Rocket guns, eh?

I'm sure Merkin was was jokin'. With a name like Merkin you know he has a sense of humor.
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We are not amused.

Rick
Using the Royal Oui
 
So, even the BATFE - home of the sixty-five thousand dollar conference table to discuss the sixty-four thousand dollar questions - can not change a propellant into an explosive.
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Doo tell. However, if JPFO is correct bATFE 's strong suit has never been technology despite its charter which is to bureaucrat what is at its core issues of technology. bATFE is a bureaucracy first and foremost. It it wants to snap fingers and do things contrary to the laws of science it will do so.
 
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