covered serial number question

[birdshot8's]

I recently saw an S&W Perfected made around 1910-20. The serial number stamped in the frame was beneath the grips. The rear sight and cylinder were marked with the serial number. My question: should the gun have a serial number stamped in the frame where it is visible without removal of the grips? and if, yes is there an exemption for older handguns?

 

[SMMAssociates]

birdshot8's:

Just off the top, there probably is an exemption for older guns, and it's possible (without seeing the gun) that the grips aren't original.

There probably is a requirement for current manufacture....

However, overall, if you can get to the serial number without a lot of hassle, it's more of a nuisance, and, I would guess, that back in 1910-1920, even bothering to check a gun's serial number without a seriously good reason probably didn't happen much. No centralized registries or computers....

At least they didn't try to print the operating manual on the side of the gun....

Regards,

 

[birdshot8's]

Thanks Stu, I had considered buying the gun but was worried about the covered serial number. The grips appeared to be original and the chromed finish also. I can't recall where, but thought I had seen a requirement for the visible serial number. I am now wishing I had bought the gun and figured it out afterwards.

 

[F-111 John]

I have a S&W Model 60 made in the late 1980s and the only place the serial number is stamped is on the butt of the frame. You have to remove the grips to read it.

I also have a Model 19 made in the late 1970s that has the serial number both on the butt of the frame and on the cylinder crane.

The actual rules that govern how manufacturers and importers must mark serial numbers is 27 CFR 478.92. The rules do state that the serial number must be conspicuously placed, and specifies the minimum height and depth of engraving or stamping.

This may not always have been the case, however. The Gun Control Act of 1968 is the law that specified all firearms must have a serial number, and gave the Attorney General the authority to specify how and where. Here are the current rules:

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and

(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(A) The model, if such designation has been made;
(B) The caliber or gauge;
(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and
(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

 

[Salmoneye]

AFAIK, there is no requirement that the serial be 'visible', just that if it came with one, that it not be 'altered or defaced' in any way...

 

[F-111 John]

As I read the rule above, only newly manufactured or imported firearms need to have the serial number "conspicuously" placed. But the rule is not retroactive to previously manufactured or imported firearms.

 

[brickeyee]

S&W Perfected made around 1910-20

Serial numbers have only been required since GCA '68.

Before that many manufacturers marked them, but there was no requirement to mark them.

Removing a number that WAS marked by the manufacturer is now a crime all by itself.

 

[bigfatdave]

serial# wasn't even required then

and no, it doesn't need to be in any particular place on the gun

 

[Twmaster]

While that gun was not required to have a serial number all handguns sold in the USA were required to have serial numbers after 1935.

The 1968 GCA mandated all long guns (which were exempt up till then).

 

[NavyLCDR]

This may not always have been the case, however. The Gun Control Act of 1968 is the law that specified all firearms must have a serial number, and gave the Attorney General the authority to specify how and where. Here are the current rules:

I don't see anything in those rules that gives the Attorney General the authority to specify anything about firearms serial numbers...

 

[F-111 John]

Commander, are you trying to be deliberately obtuse? In the small section I quoted, no. In the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended, it is an exercise left to the student to research where or if the Attorney General is authorized to set rules under the Act.

For everyone else, it is listed in Title 18, USC, section 923(i):

(i) Licensed importers and licensed
manufacturers shall identify, by means of
a serial number engraved or cast on the
receiver or frame of the weapon, in such
manner as the Attorney General shall by
regulations prescribe, each firearm imported
or manufactured by such importer
or manufacturer.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The after market Hogue grips for my Ruger Security Six cover the serial number (on the bottom of the grip). To read the number, the grips must be removed. I suspect Hogue would not have been allowed to market the grips if it were considered a violation. Not necessarily convenient if you need to verify the serial number, but neither "altered" nor "defaced" under the law.

 

[Salmoneye]

The after market Hogue grips for my Ruger Security Six cover the serial number (on the bottom of the grip). To read the number, the grips must be removed. I suspect Hogue would not have been allowed to market the grips if it were considered a violation. Not necessarily convenient if you need to verify the serial number, but neither "altered" nor "defaced" under the law.

Same with 'target' and 'finger groove' factory supplied S&W grips that cover the serial on the base of the grip frame...

 

[rcmodel]

NO it is not illegal for the grips to cover the serial number.

All S&W's made prior to the recent change to MIM parts and laser engraved serial numbers on the side of the frame had the butt marked serial number covered when they left the factory with the oversize Target grips on them.

rc

 

[Ryanxia]

I bought an S&W M&P .38 special made in 1942 for my grandfather a few years back and I had to take the grips (stock I believe) off to record the serial number. I believe this was common then.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Commander, are you trying to be deliberately obtuse? In the small section I quoted, no. In the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended, it is an exercise left to the student to research where or if the Attorney General is authorized to set rules under the Act.

For everyone else, it is listed in Title 18, USC, section 923(i):

Your post that I questioned did not have 18 USC 923 (i) quoted in it, did it? I am sorry that you take such offense to asking for a citation that proves your claim to be true. There are many claims made on these forums without citation which prove to be erroneous.

Thank you for the added info, I did not know that existed in USC.

 

[F-111 John]

I can understand your confusion. My quote that you questioned was prefaced with the phrase "here are the current rules" followed by a quoted excerpt indicating the current rules for firearms serialization as stated in the Code of Federal Regulations.

What you questioned was the actual statue authority given to the Attorney General to stipulate said regulations, and in the interest of brevity I did not quote it. However, I did provide a hot link embedded in the phrase "Gun Control Act of 1968" that would have taken you directly to a document that would have provided the quote in post #11, specifically on document page 19, pdf page 20.

My error was in not providing a paragraph break before my last sentence, which would have seperated the ideas of 'Attorney General authority' and 'current rules.'

When legal questions are involved, I do try to provide actual links to statutes when possible, so that others can read and interpret the laws and regulations for themselves, so thank you for keeping me honest.

 

[gc70]

The Sig P250 provides an interesting case of a new model that has it serial number in an unusual location, but still meets the 'conspicuous' requirement.

The serial number on a P250 is on the fire control unit (FCU); frames, slides, barrels, and magazines are interchangeable. Since the FCU fits inside the frame, the frame has a cutout through which you can see the serial number on the side of the FCU.