Cowboy Carbines

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wilkersk

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I always thought the 1894 in .30 WCF (or 30-30 if you prefer) was the penultimatet cowboy gun.

It seemed to me the idea of having your revolver and your carbine chambered in the same caliber was a relatively newer idea. But, I've read a couple of things on the internet that suggest otherwise.

Terminal ballistics suggest that the 30-30 is a far superior cartridge compared to a typically loaded .44 magnum, in terms of energy transfer and trajectory.

Anyone want to shed some light? Am I correct, or did the turn of the century cow poke really want a saddle gun chambered the same as his six gun?
 
Black powder or smokeless? There were, are, a ton of different "cowboy" cartridges at the turn of the 19th and 20th century. Though the Golden Age of the American Cowboy ended in the 1880's give or take. I am not sure if it was common to have your pistol chambered the same as your rifle due to the simple fact that even simple firearms were far to expensive an item for the average cowboy. Not to say that a cowboy did not carry a firearm, but more that they were prone to carry older black powder cap and ball revolvers and early cartridge conversion revolvers. Even at the turn of the century.

Rifles were generally carried for their higher power and longer range, so having one chambered in a pistol caliber would defeat the purpose of having the rifle in the first place. At least IMHO. I am not well versed in period correct calibers so I can not speak to what would be a Cowboy Era correct chambering or not.
 
my reading (Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Keith) lead me to believe that for most "cowboys" their pistol and rifle were tools and it only made sense to have them both chambered for the same calibre.

i came across this when i was looking at buying what i thought was the definitive "cowboy gun"...a SAA in .45LC...and found that the .45LC wasn't that common because it wouldn't feed in lever action rifles. most cowboys preferred that both their guns be chambered in 44-40 or 38-40
 
I'm pretty sure that in the heydey 1870s-1890. Most repeaters were only chambered in pistol rounds, ergo might as well be the same as your pistol.
 
Seems that for trappers, or other vocations more common in those times, this would make sense. If you spent much of your life away from towns and settlements that would have ammo or loading supplies, you would be doing it yourself. Carrying two kinds of ammo or keeping supplies for loading multiple different cartridges at your cabin seems like a luxury. I've always believed many outdoorsman of the 1800's kept their life simple and traveled light.
 
The real question is where did the cowboys go to talk about which cartridge had more stopping power or what the laws were of carrying in Dodge City?

Times were tough back then......
 
I'm pretty sure that in the heydey 1870s-1890. Most repeaters were only chambered in pistol rounds, ergo might as well be the same as your pistol.

The Winchester 1873 was initially offered in .44-40, and a few years later the Colt SAA was offered in that caliber. The .38-40, .32-20, and some others were also offered in both Winchester & SAA type revolvers.
Winchester lever rifles as originally designed were toggle-link actions and were not capable of handling the more stout "buffalo" cartridges that were often used in single shot Rolling block and dropping block style rifles. It was those singleshots that were the true "hunter's rifles" of the period. Winchesters were the "sport utility rifle" or the "assault rifle" of the day. They were good for personal defense against two legged baddies.
Marlin developed a rifle capable of handling true powerhouse rounds prior to Winchester. The 1876 lever action Winnie was an attempt to adapt the toggle link 1873 action to handle powerhouse cartridges of the day and it was really stretching the ability of the action. It wasn't until Winchester bought John Moses Browning's design for the 1886 Winchester that Winchester was able to offer a rifle that truly could handle the big powerhouse rounds safely and effectively.
It was considered an "advertising point" to be able to have a rifle and a revolver in the same caliber when Winnies were caught in the "toggle-link" period....if you wanted a rifle capable of taking down big game at that point in history you weren't using a Winnie, you were using a Sharp's rifle or a Remington rollingblock most likely.
 
Why would you choose a carbine over a rifle? Three reasons I can think of: versitilty, speed, and short-range firepower. The firearms that were designed to handle the high powered cartridges generally were for longer range shots. The actions were slower to operate, the magazines harder to load, the rifle heavier and took longer to get on target and were difficult to handle in brush or woods. The cowboy carbine gave the cowboy the value of carrying only one type of ammuntion and being able to get a couple of hundred fps out of the round for improved range and larger magazine. The cowboy could get the carbine on target quickly and easily, even from the saddle: meant for, as Tommygunn said, two-legged badies. The .30-30 gives better ballistic performance and adds some range but cuts down on the versitility. For me, the best cowboy carbine is the Winchester 1892 in 45lc--just put the front sight on the target and inside of 50 yards you are golden...
 
Terminal ballistics suggest that the 30-30 is a far superior cartridge compared to a typically loaded .44 magnum, in terms of energy transfer and trajectory.

I wouldn't bet on that! Having seen and shot critters with both IMO inside 150yds the larger caliber more rapidly expanding 44 bullets put much much more "smackdown" on critters than 30-30win. In fact even though it works great the wounds you get from 30-30 shooting traditional sp bullets in my experience tend to be rather underwhelming.

've seen SAA type revolvers in .30-30. I am not really sure I want to shoot one.
Atleast, not until I get Lee Major's "bionic wrist.

recoils not bad at all, but at over 5lbs the BFR pictured wasn't as handy to carry about as a carbine

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I talked to a lot of SASS people recently and to my surprise they prefer 38 specials, or in this case .357 revolvers and rifles. (they use the .38) Has to to with reduced recoil and better aiming. And yes, they do match up caliber of rifle with the handgun!
 
New? Pistol cartridges were first used in the first lever guns, the .44 Henry Rimfire and were actually used to a very limited extent in the civil war. There was the Spencer Carbine in what would not be considered a pistol caliber, but it saw limited production and wasn't a lever gun, anyway, not in the Winchester pattern. The lever guns were the sub-machine guns of their day. When BP cap and ball revolvers began to be custom converted to cartridges prior to 1873, they were often converted to the Henry round. So, these carbines were shooting these rounds before handguns were. When the 73 Winchester came out same year of the new Colt Peacemaker, it came out in handgun calibers and became a western favorite. It offered firepower which was important when a Comanche war party attacked.

It wasn't until 1894 that the very first American smokeless powder round, came out. That's the 94's legacy. The west had almost completely been tamed by then. It brought sportsmen out of the black powder age an into the smokeless age. It wasn't so much a "cowboy" gun as it was a sportsman's gun. It is the quintessential American deer rifle, which only began to fade a bit long after bolt action rifles became the rage after WW1. Of course, the gun was used by law enforcement in the 20th century and I'm sure it made its way to saddle scabbards on big ranches and border ranches. In the year just previous to WW1, there were border problems, skirmishes with bandito rebels in such places at Columbus, New Mexico. Sound familiar? But, it came long after cattle drives and the wild west's most famous years were past.
 
38spl is used in SASS for low recoil and faster follow up shots and cost, old time cowpokes used the 44-40 in both as Winchester refused to use a straight wall case (45colt/ in the lever actions. Lever guns in 45colt get very dirty, 44-40/38-40 is tapered and seals better= cleaner action.
 
The first practical lever action rifle design was the 1860 Henry firing a .44 rimfire cartridge. IIRC, the bullet was somewhere around 218 grains and I think the powder charge was 28 grains of black powder. Might be a bit off but either way, it was essentially a "pistol" cartridge. They just didn't know it yet.
As noted, the Spencer was a heavier round (I think a .52 caliber) and more powerful than the .44 rimfire used in the Henry and 1866 Winchester but even it resembled an oversized pistol round.
I think the first lever action firing a real rifle round was the 1876 Winchester.

If you really want to get into what "won" the west though, you'd likely have to credit the single shot buffalo guns. Killing off the buffalo took away the Indians' food supply and made the west way easier to pacify.

Also, I think the reason the .45 Colt wasn't used in rifles was the tiny rim on the casing. It doesn't look that bad now but I've seen them slip out of shell holders when reloading so I can see how an extractor could easily slip over it. Don't have diagrams in front of me right now to compare it to the .44-40 or .38-40, but I'm pretty sure the rims on both are larger. And I'm told that the .45's rim was even smaller on the old balloon head casings.
 
The older cartridges did not have the groove ahead of the rim for more extractor purchase, it was just a square edge from the face of the rim to the case body. The older 44 WCF (44-40) rounds had about as much rim for the extractor to grab as a modern 45 Colt round does, The older 45 Colt rims are very small. The modern 45 Colt cases are also very heavy and thick compared to the 44/40 cases, or older 45 Colt cases. I believe this is most of the difference in how dirty the modern guns chambered in 45 Colt get.

As has been mentioned, the 44 WFC round was in fact, not a "handgun" round, it was a rifle round that later became chambered in handguns. 5 years later in fact, in the Colt single action (called the "Frontier Six Shooter" when so chambered, not "Single Action Army").

The toggle link action is certainly not as strong as later designs, but I believe has been unjustly maligned as to it's strength. Winchester took a model 1876 chambered in 45-75 (A shorter, squatty bottleneck round slightly shorter than the 45-70 Govt round) I believe, and tested it with double bullets, extra powder charges/double bullets, and finally with one link removed from the action. It held through all that, but with the heavy loads and one link, there was a problem that precluded further testing. I believe the gun was fitted with new links, and continued to perform fine.

The SASS shooters tend to use rather weak loads. Their choices don't reflect practical field use in most cases, in my experience. There are few SASS shooters that use full power level loads in their guns, and not the top shots that I've heard of. I don't believe the reasoning is range safety. If so, there would be rules requiring such weak loads. (The few Cowboy shoots I've participated in, I used full power loads. Many folks would like to see power factor levels used in the sport to make it more practical and historically accurate/interesting to those that participate because of out love of old guns, not as a competion game that can be "gotten ahead in" with weak loads.)

I often carry a Winchester. I prefer the range of the 30WCF to any handgun round in a carbine (44 mag in my case). Properly sighted, with good bullet profiles like the Speers, 300 yards isnt at all hard. Sight in 3" high @ 100 yards with Speer 170 gr bullets and you're OK to hold right on to about 225 yards, @ 300 yards it's about 18" low. 150's shoot a little flatter, mostly negating any real world advantage of the Hornady leverevolution when both are sighted in at similar ranges and sight heights. I don't mind carrying different rounds for handgun or rifle to get that range. Next step up is 30-06 for me. The 44's may thump a little harder than a 30-30, but the trajectory difference makes the 30-30 more useful to me.

I would add that the 1894 and 30WCF round wasnt necessarily just a "sportsmans" gun. The American West may have been mostly settled, and the Indians rounded up, but many folks continued to use their guns on a daily basis. Not everyone lived in large towns, or any town at all, not to mention the many that headed to the far North in search of gold, fur, or adventure. The Winchesters were great guns for those frontiers. Many old timers were glad to see the 30 WCF round come out, and be able to drop the heavy guns and ammunition of the larger black powder period. One writer discussing the matter, on the way to the Klondike goldfields, said that when the first 1894's arrived (1895 was the actual year the 30 WCF came out) in the Skaguay staging ares, they all laughed at them. When they started shooting them, and saw that they would shoot through a 10" tree, he wrote "We threw away our 45-90's, and clamored for the new Winchesters".

The 30 cal Winchesters are still carried by some working cowboys. I know one that carries his on the mountain. Another older hand uses a 32 Spl in the 94 when in the mountains.


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