Crappy AKs Cannot shoot worth a damn....or can they?

[cslinger]

Here is the crappy AK in question. A VEPR II in 7.62x29 with a POSP 4x scope. Ok a not so crappy AK but an AK. Ammo used was crappy Wolf hollow point ammo.

Here is a 20 round box of said Wolf ammo fired at about half to 1 second intervals at 100 yards off the bipod.

Hey as far as I am concerned I will take that kind of crappy accuracy from crappy ammo.

 

[bratch]

Nice shooting.

Couple questions. Is the POSP the 4x24 model calibrated for 7.62x39? I've been thinking about getting one for my VEPR for a pseudo DMR.

How did you get the bipod on?

 

[MassMark]

Yup - nice shooting...My Arsenal also disproves the "innacuracy of AK variants"... I use a current issue Russian PO 3 5x21P on mine...love it....

 

[geojap]

I used to have that exact same set up before I sold my 20" VEPR and bought the 16" version with no scope. I got 4 MOA all day long with it. It is a super sweet rifle. Enjoy it.

 

[AK103K]

That cant be right! Everyone who never shot one and posts on the internet can tell you you cant hit scheiße with an AK.

 

[yongxingfreesty]

that's not a crappy ak to me. my wasr cant do that =(, the mac90 better than the wasr.

 

[Outlaws]

Here is a 20 round box of said Wolf ammo fired at about half to 1 second intervals at 100 yards off the bipod.

I'd like to see some video of this.

 

[telecaster1981]

Wait a minute...aren't VEPR's commonly considered the most accurate AK-style rifles available (or at least some of the most accurate)???

VERY impressive though...

I sure hope my Yugo Underfolder will be somewhere close to that accurate! Not to hijack the thread but to those of you who own Yugo M70 rifles, what kinds of groups are you getting?

 

[wacki]

Somebody needs to try this with a $99 romanian kit.

 

[wally]

I'm curious, how close to zero was your PSOP scope when first mounted?

I've had mine on four different AKs and with the dials at 0 0 all were never more than three clicks from zero at 50 yards. Mounting a typical scope I'm generally happy to be on the paper with the first shots. I'm wondering if my four guns are a fluke or if the Ruskie's were really on to something with their scope mount rail setup.

--wally.

 

[cslinger]

No video of this. Strangely enough I do have a very short video of me shooting my SIG 556 today. Playing with a new camera. I was amazed that the SIG pretty much exhibited NO muzzle rise. It was almost exactly straight back into my shoulder.

The shooting was pull trigger, re-aquire, pull trigger over and over until all 20 rounds were exhausted. The length of time between shots was roughly a count of "one one thousand". The VEPR is a very heavy gun relatively speaking, especially with bipod and optics so she doesn't move too much shot to shot in 62x39.

Scope is a 4x24 set up for 7.62x39 AFAIK.


I was being a bit facisious with the term crappy AK. The VEPR is one of the finest AK variants and known to be pretty accurate.

As for scope zero. The scope was originally on a .308 VEPR and when I mounted and zeroed on this gun several months ago I don't really remember how many clicks it was off. It was pretty easy to zero, as were the Mojo sights on the gun. I just hadn't had the gun out in a while and I was quite happy with that particular group. I can tell you that the scope holds zero when removed from the rail and replaced as I do this for cleaning.

As for the Russian side rail setup, I must say I really like it. Yes you get an optic that sits a bit too high but they generally allow for instant use of irons for backup and the mount is built hell for stout and I have never had an issue with a scope being removed and put back on loosing zero. Frankly as far as small arms and war fighting I think the Russians did a lot of things right ranging from the wide spread use of the assault rifle concept to the concept of a DMR instead of a super highly trained precision marksman and rifle.

I was also sighting in a "crappy" AK (SAR-1) with Mojo irons today and although it has a spectacular KREBs trigger it was considerably less accurate with just irons and the fact it is not nearly as nice an AK. At 100 yards it was in the black but generally all over the black. I have never shot this gun with any optics.

 

[bratch]

Are you using the Mojo peep that replaces the standard rear sight? How do you like it?

 

[cslinger]

I have Mojo rear micro click peep sights on both my AKs. I like them very much. Kind of a PITA to get them on though.

My only complaint is I wish the peep was a tad bit larger. They are a very quality product and worth every cent IMHO.

Chris

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

What a piece of garbage! I'll save you the embarassment of shooting that poor and take it off your hands for $100

Good shooting!

 

[M110]

I want to see the pic of the whole target

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

1] The Saiga, Arsenal and VEPR AK's are not "crap" in any sense of the word. Each of them has a well made barrel with decent rifling and a clean crown.

2] Wolf ammo is not the kind of ammo that can produce one hole groups, regardless of the rifle. It simply is not loaded consistently enough to produce the low SD's necessary. Chronograph it yourself. Run the velocities through a simulator, the trajectory variation alone is enough to make larger groups.

3] 0.5-1.0 second per shot for 20 shots (at even 25 yards if you want!) is a bit of an exaggeration I imagine. The recoil doesn't allow anyone to get back on sight or on target and to pull off a good squeeze of the trigger to make the group in that picture. Guessing that most quality, factory made bolt action rifles with quality ammo (not Wolf) shooting slowfire from a bench do not make one hole groups, and are often 0.75-1.25" @ 100 yards for most rifles. 0.5" groups are very rare (not consistent) among upper-end factory bolt action rifles unless you fork over some serious coin for one that will deliver that kind of performance regularly (high end, or custom).

4] Just about any firearm can make a "group of the week" ...

5] An AK doesn't need to make a tiny group to get any kind of respect. Quality AK's like the Saiga, VEPR and Arsenal's all group significantly better than the Romanian AK's. They group within the standard for American service rifles (~4moa) and sometimes less. In terms of accuracy, they go above and beyond what they were designed for.

 

[Caimlas]

I believe the main cause of the rumors of crappy AK accuracy are three fold:
1) US troops claiming so out of experience and a desire to have a superior weapon. And to convince themselves they're not going to get shot by a Jihadi.
2) Crappy sights.
3) Crappy, ancient AKs said US troops encounter in the desert which really probably do shoot a bit worse than your US-made AK.

 

[SaMx]

I would add crappy old ammo to that too.

 

[Caimlas]

2] Wolf ammo is not the kind of ammo that can produce one hole groups, regardless of the rifle. It simply is not loaded consistently enough to produce the low SD's necessary. Chronograph it yourself. Run the velocities through a simulator, the trajectory variation alone is enough to make larger groups.

That's what I was thinking. I can't get groups like that with my AR and a 4x scope at 100 yards - granted, in a ~10mph cross wind, and the bullet is quite a bit lighter - but I've never seen or heard of Wolf shooting that well in anything, nevermind an AK. That's while taking my time for each shot in prone - and I'm a good shot (certainly quite a bit better than average, at least). I know that kind of shooting is possible - just not with an AK using Wolf ammo.

And is that a "flier" directly above the quarter? Why such a closely cropped image? I cry afoul.

 

[cslinger]

ARs don't generally weight just shy of 11 pounds. My VEPR is heavy as hell with all the crap hanging off of it and recoil is just about non existent.

Does it do this consistently, not really. It was a good group I managed today. It does shoot well though.

As for the time between shots it was most certainly roughly a count of "One One Thousand" each shot because that is what I mouthed each shot to keep my breathing in check.

The full target also has shots from another firearm in it.


Chris

 

[SnakeEater]

Please don't take this the wrong way cslinger. I believe the VEPR may be capable of that, but I can't swallow Wolf ammo shooting into a group like that. It's just not that good, or even half that good.

I don't believe it's possible even at 25yds.

 

[plexreticle]

Is this the same guy that shoots 3" groups at 100m offhand with his AK?

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Wolf HP's shoot MUCH better than Wolf FMJ in terms of accuracy.

Also, AK's vary in terms of accuracy. Some AK's can shoot very well, others are horrid...

 

[AK103K]

My experience with Wolf has been very inconsistent. Some lots shoot great, some not so great. Their bullets are the rolled crimped type base, many with lead smears across the bottom. Their HP's are a gimmick, and not a true match HP, which has a jacketed base, hence the reason for the HP. The HP is also not a hunting HP. I've had more misfires with Wolf than any other brand.

The most consistent and accurate Russian ammo I've used has been Barnaul. Their SP's have a flat, jacketed base and shoot very well.

I have AK's that cover the spectrum price wise. All will shoot better than many people seem to think they should, especially from a field position. Then again, its been my experience that "most" shoot off a bench, at a target that has an aiming point, and consider themselves "rifle shooters". Many seem to think that 6" is a good AK group at 100 yards. Most AK's will do half that if you can do your part, especially with a good lot of ammo.

The problem generally isnt the gun. While AK's are not target rifles, they can acquit themselves well in the hands of someone who can shoot.

Is this the same guy that shoots 3" groups at 100m offhand with his AK?

I've shot groups of this size offhand at that range with an AK, and more than just a few times. All my AK's can easily make consistent head shots on an IPSC target (6"x6") fired this way at 100 yards, open sights or red dot. If yours cant, then maybe its not the rifle.

 

[KHAN]

I have Mojo rear micro click peep sights on both my AKs. I like them very much. They are a very quality product and worth every cent IMHO.

I agree. I love my Mojo sights. I live near Mojo's home and he makes a quality product and offers great service.