Crimping issues ONLY, .44 magnum

[drband]

Here we go:

In loading for .44 magnum, there seems to be many opinions about crimping, not crimping, equipment/dies to use (or not use), role of the crimp, which bullets to crimp (or not), amount of crimp to use, sizing issues related to crimp dies (and resulting leading), etc... etc...

Maybe we can make this a resource for what works and/or how to recognize and resolve these problems. It's complex, or can be.

Selfishly, I am about to start loading 44mag and would like to avoid these problems.

In example, let's start with the following:
New Starline 44mag brass, RMR 235gr Thundercast hard cast LSWC's sized @ .429", being shot in a Super Blackhawk 7.5" bbl.
Starting loads will be on the light side.
Dies are the Lee deluxe 4-die set (includes the factory crimp die) on a Lee Classic Turret.

The plan is to set up using the 3rd die to seat and remove the flare/bell and then to add a slight crimp with the FCD in station 4.

The rationale is that by doing so, I will not need to adjust die 3 for crimping as I change loads/powders moving up to heavier, powerful loads. Crimp changes can be managed with the FCD adjustment. (It is a roll crimp BTW)

I plan to check for bullet sizing from the FCD and will modify plans as needed (either remove the FCD carbide ring, or switch to the Lee collet crimp die (roll crimp) for the 4th station.

That's a lot of data. Ok folks--have at it!
Opinions welcome!

 

[Wildfire]

Crimp.

I think a light crimp will result in problems.
Roll crimps are for wheel gun rounds that have recoil. Any .44 magnum load will have recoil. Unless you are talking of very, very light loads you will need a real crimp or it will scoot bullets forward.

The heavier the load the more crimp needed to keep bullets in place and crimp also helps powder burn correctly.
Proper crimp will also add to consistency and that is why we load our own.

Nothing wrong with how you intend to do it, but I would use a stuff crimp no matter what load.

 

[98Redline]

I reload a lot of 44mag for my stable of Rugers.

1) I think you are going to find those .429 bullets will lead your bore regardless of what you do. Rugers are known to have a bore that is around .430 or .431. My go-to diameter is .432 and it works well is all of my guns. Try slugging your bore to measure

2) Don't bother with the FCD on a hard kicking revolver round. Stick with a roll crimp....a heavy roll crimp. I use a Lee 3 die set on a single stage press. The first pass through die #3 removes the bell and seats the bullet. Once everything is seated I readjust the die (takes like 30 seconds) and add a heavy roll crimp.

The issue with the FCD is that they tend to swage down the bullet in the case and make your .429 bullet more like .428 or .427, which will lead to leading the bore.

Also if you don't apply enough crimp your bullets will tend to walk out of the case under recoil. This can lead to different performance due to lower chamber pressures or actually tying up the gun when the nose of the bullet protrudes past the face of the cylinder.

 

[TimSr]

I think crimping is a simple process that is made overly complicated by over thinking it. The whole concept of light crimp/heavy crimp is kind of lost when you consider that the brass rolled up against bullet is as "heavy" as you can possibly go, unless you are fine with either cutting into the bullet with the case mouth, or swaging the bullet with the crimp and changing it's shape.

So how to crimp a .44 mag? Adjust the roll crimp to curl the case mouth tight in and against the bullet cannelure without cutting into, or squeezing the bullet out of shape. It will only go so far before it bottoms on the bullet, and you can't make it tighter by squeezing it harder against the bullet. The major factor in holding your bullet in place is the tension from resizing your case, and that tiny curl on the mouth of it is a helper snag.

When test firing your loads, check the last round in the gun for bullet creeping out of the case.

A full crimp may not be necessary for light loads, and experts will debate whether there is benefit from less than a full crimp on light loads that do not require them.

As for FCD, I've never owned or used one, and personally have only seen them as something replace learning proper crimping, except in unusual or non-standard circumstances when it comes to pistol rounds.

 

[Wildfire]

I agree

I agree with 98.
I cannot see any need for the stage #4.
3 dies work and always have.
I use #3 all in one stroke.

I was not aware of how those lee dies worked. Never used them. But, If I recall, seems like I heard of the swage issue before too.

I learned this the hard way my self. .45 Colt and wanted to use 200 gr. SWC. I roll crimped I roll crimped on the forward band and it shook my bullet loose.
To bad, those 200s were extremely accurate one at a time.

 

[drband]

I'm aware of the sizing issues with the FCD. noted.
What should I SLUG with? If my bullets are on the small side, wouldn't they be too small to SLUG the bore accurately?

I'm new to loading cast lead bullets.
Also, the FCD is a roll crimp but also has a carbide sizing ring. I can remove the sizing ring leaving the collet roll crimp intact if needed. I plan to measure and modify as needed.

 

[Wildfire]

Crimping too heavy can result in Bulged brass.
Crimping too light results in loose bullets.
Test it.

 

[Wildfire]

That sizing ring is why I stayed away from those dies.

With any lead or cast bullets it is better to be a tad larger than too small.
Lead bullets do not increase PSI.
Powder charge does.
A bullet undersized will give poor accuracy and lead barrels worse.

 

[98Redline]

Ideally you don't want to swage with anything. The bullet you are shooting should be properly sized for the bore both before and after loading. When shooting cast bullets, you need to be more concerned with bullet to barrel fit than if you are shooting copper. Too small of a bullet will result in bore leading, especially as velocities increase.

Your resizing/decapping die will do all of the case resizing that needs to be done.
Bell the mouth as little as you can to get the bullet to seat properly.
Seat to the bottom 1/3 of the cannelure
Roll crimp and the bullet will likely scooch in just a bit to put the roll crimp right in the center of the cannelure.

With my loaded rounds I can actually see the outline of the driving bands and grooves through the brass. This is what you want. It ensures that you have enough case tension and along with the roll crimp will hold the bullet in place.

 

[drband]

Ideally you don't want to swage with anything. The bullet you are shooting should be properly sized for the bore both before and after loading. When shooting cast bullets, you need to be more concerned with bullet to barrel fit than if you are shooting copper. Too small of a bullet will result in bore leading, especially as velocities increase.



Your resizing/decapping die will do all of the case resizing that needs to be done.

Bell the mouth as little as you can to get the bullet to seat properly.

Seat to the bottom 1/3 of the cannelure

Roll crimp and the bullet will likely scooch in just a bit to put the roll crimp right in the center of the cannelure.



With my loaded rounds I can actually see the outline of the driving bands and grooves through the brass. This is what you want. It ensures that you have enough case tension and along with the roll crimp will hold the bullet in place.

I meant: What do I SLUG the bore with? Wrong term used. You're correct, I don't want to swage anything.

 

[98Redline]

You want to slug the bore with a pure lead fishing sinker. Essentially you pound a slightly larger than bore size pure lead sinker all the way through (muzzle to forcing cone) then use a micrometer (not a caliper) to measure the diameter of the grooves. Ideally you want your actual bullet to be around .0015 to .0020 larger than this. It ensures that the bullet will swage down as it enters the forcing cone and properly seal the bore.

 

[drband]

Got it. I don't have a micrometer. Do you thing I could get a good idea with a caliper?

 

[mdi]

I think crimping is a simple process that is made overly complicated by over thinking it.

Agree and I think the OP is confused. Reloading revolver bullets, either cast or jacketed, a roll crimp is used. Plated bullets may be the exception, but I have no need for plated bullets (yep, I tried them. 1,200 fired through my 45 ACP and 9mm). Nearly every manual I've looked at gives examples of roll crimps and it don't take much smarts to figure out how much is needed. I have roll crimped my .38 Specials since 1969, .357 Magnums since 1980, and .44 Magnums since 1986, and have always gotten good results. K.I.S.S.; revolver bullets are designed for roll crimps...

IMO (from 30 years of reloading and 15 years on line) there is no need for a Lee FCD. If one learns how to properly adjust their dies, their ammo will chamber correctly. The "advantage" of an FCD is the "post seating/crimping sizing" that hides any bulges or distortions from improper die adjustments. (and I tend to think od those 17.75 bizillion rounds reloaded, successfully, prior to Lee introducing their hand gun FCD). Not a Lee Hater, just think the FCD is of no use, especially to new reloaders.

Micrometers are recommended over calipers mainly because calipers have long thin jaws. It's fairly easy for an inexperienced user to "spring" the jaws and get poor measurements. Also the thin jaws can get into imperfections, grooves in the part being measured. Micrometers have solid anvils and flat spindles and a heavy frame that does not flex. (life long machinist/mechanic)

 

[drband]

Thanks!! Micrometer it is.

 

[Wildfire]

Mic

While agree on the mic issue the high dollar Calipers can work.
We are not machining Cam shafts. A good caliper has always worked for me. I have all the sizes of mics also. They have always read the same for me.

You can shorten up the slugging thing. I use soft lead round balls. Pound one in the muzzle end an 1" and push it back out from the other end. Read it.
Do the same at the breach end and read it. They should be the same but not always.
Good barrels read the same. Pure lead. Not cast lead. Cast is harder and wont be any fun pounding down a barrel.
The Calipers have a wide spot. Use the wheel and do not over push.

 

[PapaG]

If you want the most uniform roll crimp, you may have to trim your brass first to get the same overall length. Varying lengths will result in more or less crimp.
You could take one of your 44 slugs, put it on a steel plate or anvil, pop it a time or two with a dead blow hammer to swell it enough to use for slugging.
If you have good calipers they will work but a mike will work easier and more accurately. BTW, if you have a five groove barrel, it is virtually impossible to mike across the grooves of the slug. (a lot, if not most smiths were five groove) Takes a v-block and some math skills.
I stay with moderately hard or less and size to .431 for most. Wish I could find a Lyman or other sizing die at .432

 

[Wildfire]

PaPa has it.

If we said everything all in one post it would fill this. Smashing a bullet works too.
No one had said it before him.
Some never do it but I always do it. Trim all of them. I trim all .38s and .357s and and even my .45 Colts.
I clean them inside and out and cut primer pockets and flash holes and ye sit takes for ever. But, I made tools for my lathe and that really shortens things up.
I also wanted a size die for my .45 Colt rounds to get .453" so, I am making one. Almost done. Just need to finish ream it and I will have my own custom die. I made it from an old lawn mower axle. The steel was about the right hardness. I need the lube holes yet too.

 

[drband]

In terms of Post seating sizing, I intend to check measurements pre and post FCD to see if the bullet has been sized at all by the FCD. I will also compare FCD crimped to seating die crimped as well. I may very well find that I need to remove the carbide sizing ring in the FCD.
I "get it" that I could seat/crimp in one step with the 3rd station. I just prefer to do the steps separately without needing a die adjustment to vary the crimp. I respect those who hold a different viewpoint here. I may end up seeing things as you do, but I will learn a great deal as I pursue the process.

BTW great posts by all so far!

 

[murf]

while you are slugging the bore might as well slug all six chamber throats. the throat is the first thing the bullet goes through and should be larger in diameter than the groove daimeter of the barrel. all six throat diameters should be the same.

murf

 

[drband]

while you are slugging the bore might as well slug all six chamber throats. the throat is the first thing the bullet goes through and should be larger in diameter than the groove daimeter of the barrel. all six throat diameters should be the same.

murf

Excellent. I'll do that.

 

[Wildfire]

Murf has a very good point. A recent revolver I bought was not right.
2 of the holes in the cylinder would not allow a round in. They are all the same now.

 

[drband]

Murf has a very good point. A recent revolver I bought was not right.

2 of the holes in the cylinder would not allow a round in. They are all the same now.

I assume you sent it back for warranty repair??

 

[Wildfire]

No.

No, most would but, I do all my own work. Been at this for most of 40 years now. I have been very blessed with a nice shop and cool tools.

 

[98Redline]

Not to re-hash the point but the Lee FCD is good for autoloaders. It ensures that all rounds are properly sized, post seat and crimp, and will feed properly when relying on the energy of the recoil spring to load and seat them, although the same could be said for a go/no-go gauge or just doing the plunk test with your own barrel.

On a revolver, the FCD is completely unnecessary and leads to more problems than it solves.

 

[fireman 9731]

I seat and roll crimp at the same time with my Lee dies. I only use the Factory Crimp Die on jacketed bullets with no cannelure, and usually thats only for semi-autos.