Crimping question

[martinb3152]

Hello everyone, had some problems at the range today with some .45's that I have loaded. I loaded some 230 grain copper plated RN with 4.9grains of Titegroup. Oal is aprox 1.238"-1.240". I was having some jamming problems with my Kimber Custom II. I have a Norinco .45 and all from this batch shot fine. But in the Kimber, big time jam. So I am thinking it's got to be a crimping issue. Here is a pic of two of them. The one on the left is with less crimp and the one on the right I readjusted by my Dillon die like the manual instructed me to do without any modifications at all. I will be going out tomorrow to see if there is going to be a difference. I am going to bring both of my .45's to make sure so I don't end up wasting range fees for nothing. Can some of you give your opinion on how these rounds look as far as crimping?
thanks,
martinb3152

 

[nettlle]

Check your crimp diameter by measuring the outside diameter of the case as close as you can to the case mouth. Lyman's 49th recommends .473" diameter. I prefer to crimp to .469"/.470" outside diameter.

 

[martinb3152]

Check your crimp diameter by measuring the outside diameter of the case as close as you can to the case mouth. Lyman's 49th recommends .473" diameter. I prefer to crimp to .469"/.470" outside diameter.

Thank you, that was my problem. I didn't check the crimp measurements before I started reloading. I assumed that my die was set from the the last session since I didn't take the dies out of the tool head. My crimp was up to .472-.475" on some of the loads. My new revised crimp is measuring at .469"-.470"like you mentioned. That's why I guess it's never good to assume anything in reloading.
martinb3152

 

[Walkalong]

"Crimp" just enough to remove the bell, or a hair more. (.001 or .002)

Any more is a waste of time, and could cause a problem with headspace since .45 headspaces on the case mouth.

Try the "plunk test" to be sure you are not loaded too long, but at 1.240 I would think you are OK.

If you have removed the bell completely and the rounds won't feed, something else is wrong.

Berrys 230 Gr RN

 

[sbwaters]

At first I crimped that sucker down to .471 because I didn’t want any setback.

After someone reminded me of the use of the front lip of the case to headspace on, I reconsidered using .473. I loaded a dummy round at .473 and tried to push the bullet into the case. I could not do it.

I have been satisfied using a .473 crimp ever since. Not .474; .473. They all load in my Springfield 1911 Trophy Match. They all fire. And my Hornady seating/crimp die seems a lot happier when I pull the handle.

 

[Walkalong]

I crimped that sucker down to .471 because I didn’t want any setback.

Neck tension is what does the job in calibers like 9MM, .40, & .45 ACP.

 

[joem1945]

I use a case gauge when I set up my dies. If I change bullet manufactures or type I again use the gauge to make sure I will not have a problem. I hate to have to tear down a bunch of loads.

 

[mdi]

FWIW, and excellent advice from Walkalong, I do not crimp any semi-auto reloads. I merely remove any flare from the case mouths using a taper crimp die and I exclusively use "The Plunk Test"...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I also agree it's neck tension that prevents bullet setback. Sometimes excessive crimp will reduce the neck tension.

When I read the OP first thing that came to mind, the OAL is off. You should always confirm the ammo OAL with the barrel you will be using with semi-auto cartridges. Some guns with certain bullets require a very short OAL to function reliably although most won't.

 

[martinb3152]

I use a case gauge when I set up my dies. If I change bullet manufactures or type I again use the gauge to make sure I will not have a problem. I hate to have to tear down a bunch of loads.

The case gauge was useless in this scenario. All of my rounds went thru my Wilson .45acp case gauge, but wouldn't pass the plunk test in the barrel of my Kimber.

Went to the range today and all my .45's shot fine after I re-crimped them except for a couple of FTF. Maybe 1.240" is too long?
martinb3152

 

[Conservidave]

Just for grins i would try loading a half dozen or so a little longer at 1.260 (if the plunk permits) just to see if feeding improves. I have also heard a few stories about kimbers being a little finicky about ammo, including RN.

 

[rcmodel]

Lyman's 49th recommends .473" diameter.

Lyman does not 'recommend' .473".

That drawing in your manual is the SAAMI MAX size of a loaded .45 ACP.

You will find all GI Mil-Spec, and factory loaded .45 ACP will measure .4695" to .471" at the case mouth.

Never more then that.

Rc

 

[martinb3152]

Just for grins i would try loading a half dozen or so a little longer at 1.260 (if the plunk permits) just to see if feeding improves. I have also heard a few stories about kimbers being a little finicky about ammo, including RN.

I agree, I am going to be lengthening the next batch. They might be a little too short.
martinb3152

 

[nettlle]

I think 1.240" may be too short. Try 1.250".

 

[DBEAM]

From what I have read here before all I do with plated bullets is run them through my Lee FCD (this die seems to be controversial) with it set to barely crimp, like an 1/8 turn past touching if it at all. Before I was crimping way more then that and when I pulled bullets you could see I was really narrowing the base of the bullet. I don't think they were at danger of set back because the un deformed part of the bullet looked bigger then the case but I'm sure it wasn't good. I loaded my 230 xtemes to 1.25 over all and they functioned fine in my XD 45. Where did you get the load data for 4.9 gns of titegroup? The Hodgdon site says max of 4.8 but does have an oal of 1.2 inches.

 

[martinb3152]

I also agree it's neck tension that prevents bullet setback. Sometimes excessive crimp will reduce the neck tension.

When I read the OP first thing that came to mind, the OAL is off. You should always confirm the ammo OAL with the barrel you will be using with semi-auto cartridges. Some guns with certain bullets require a very short OAL to function reliably although most won't.

What should the OAL be for a Kimber 5" barrel? Where would I get this information from?
thanks,
martinb3152

 

[martinb3152]

From what I have read here before all I do with plated bullets is run them through my Lee FCD (this die seems to be controversial) with it set to barely crimp, like an 1/8 turn past touching if it at all. Before I was crimping way more then that and when I pulled bullets you could see I was really narrowing the base of the bullet. I don't think they were at danger of set back because the un deformed part of the bullet looked bigger then the case but I'm sure it wasn't good. I loaded my 230 xtemes to 1.25 over all and they functioned fine in my XD 45. Where did you get the load data for 4.9 gns of titegroup? The Hodgdon site says max of 4.8 but does have an oal of 1.2 inches.

I got the info from my Hornaday Fifth edition manual. But I am going to start reducing the load anyway and go with Hodgdon's listing instead. It's way too much kick for me at 4.9grains. It's not enjoyable to shoot. Anyway, I am going to start reloading with Universal instead of Titegroup just because they don't have it at the moment at my gun shop. What is your oal for 230grain xtreme? That's what I am using.
martinb3152

 

[martinb3152]

I think 1.240" may be too short. Try 1.250".

Really? This is where I am confused. Would FTF be caused by to short or too long OAL? They don't jam, just have to tap the slide on a few to get it to go in battery.
martinb3152

 

[Ironicaintit]

I would try using a shorter OAL.

Then, there's "more" of the cartridge that has left the magazines lips before it reaches the ramp. ( that's my take on that)

I use a shorter OAL to ensure feeding in all of my 45's.

 

[Walkalong]

They could be too short, or it could be a gun problem. Do the plunk test and if that rules out being too long, try 1.260 OAL. If that passes the plunk test and won't feed in one but still feeds in the other, look at the gun.

 

[solman]

I had a similar problem with my Kimber target .45 a number of years ago.
The slide would stop short of going into battery by just a bit, at which point it was often hard to eject and impossible to close the slide by hand.
I tried many different lengths, crimps, bullets etc. and still the problem persisted .
I finally called Kimber and spoke to a tech. He recommended a new slide spring and that solved my problems.

 

[Toprudder]

The Xtreme RN 45 bullets can be seated to the SAAMI max of 1.275 and still plunk in both of my 45s. I generally seat them to 1.245 as that has been very reliable in my guns.

OTOH, the RMR HM 230gn bullets must be seated to 1.200" to plunk in the same guns. Much different profile.

I have noticed more reliable feeding/chambering in my guns, especially with SWC bullets, if I crimp the case mouth to .469".

 

[martinb3152]

The Xtreme RN 45 bullets can be seated to the SAAMI max of 1.275 and still plunk in both of my 45s. I generally seat them to 1.245 as that has been very reliable in my guns.

OTOH, the RMR HM 230gn bullets must be seated to 1.200" to plunk in the same guns. Much different profile.

I have noticed more reliable feeding/chambering in my guns, especially with SWC bullets, if I crimp the case mouth to .469".

Thanks for the info. That's what I am using is extreme 230 RN
martinb3152

 

[tonyjr]

Years ago , I had so many misfeeds / jams [ I was just saving cases and buying factory cartridges . ] with the 45 . The 380 was fine with reloads .
Anyway , I was at gun counter and a guy bought 10 boxes of 100 bullets - his advise was to use all the holes in turret .
Now #1 sizes [ since then I de-prime , clean pocket before tumbling - tumbler and hand prime ] #2 dumps powder , #3 seats bullet , #4 set bullet to right depth , and #5 crimps [ if needed and checks plunks test ]
This has served me well for 8 pistol calibers and 6 rifle .
My biggest problem was when a nephew shows up with dies , cases and bullets for glock 40mm . He asked before he came and I said sure . [ he is about 500 miles away ] I figured the I could use the 41 mag dies -[ worked but APITA ] I have bought another a 4 die set of 40 mm dies since then .

 

[mdi]

Perhaps I'm too simple minded to figger out any measurement so, I use the barrel of the gun the ammo is being used for. I seat the bullet way out and try the "Plunk Test", I'll decrease the OAL by about .010"until I get good "plunks" then I measure. I can fiddle more (increasing OAL by .002" until I get "interference" chambering, then drop back .002" increments) or most of the time I'll stay with the first "plunkable" OAL. This is the OAL for that one bullet in that one gun and although it will prolly work in other guns, I do this for each gun, and I record it in my log...

Another thought, bullet shape (ogive) largely determines OAL. A fat round nose will require a shorter OAL than a truncated cone bullet...