Curio & Relics FFL -03. Is it Time to Terminate the License?

[GBExpat]

Your thoughts, THR?

We are in the same age group and have had our C&Rs for about the same length of time (beginning of 2002 for me).

I will re-up again this year because I am in the "I'd rather have it and not need it" state of mind on the subject.

Heck, it's only $10 per year ... and think of all the nice commercial firearms that are now covered by the 50 Year rule.

That first handgun that I ever bought, NIB, (4" blue Ruger Security Six s/n: 150-33573, Spring 1973) is now a C&R.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Same here. Bought many Milsurps "Back in the Day", but it's been a good long time since I've bought anything with it. C&R is a dying thing in my estimation. The golden age of buying cheap milsurps are long gone. Have you seen the prices lately on a run of the mill Mosin? They used to be $90 a rifle. Saw an M44 for $800 the other day. Nearly blew my mind.....

 

[The Black Prince]

I keep mine for multiple reasons. One I've snagged a few milsurps with it at what I'd consider a deal by today's standards. Also I live in CA so no 1 in 30 for me and I can have ammo shipped to my house.

 

[Remington1911]

I keep mine for multiple reasons. One I've snagged a few milsurps with it at what I'd consider a deal by today's standards. Also I live in CA so no 1 in 30 for me and I can have ammo shipped to my house.

That is something I had not thought about, living in a free state and all. Very good point.

 

[dogtown tom]

Same here. Bought many Milsurps "Back in the Day", but it's been a good long time since I've bought anything with it. C&R is a dying thing in my estimation. The golden age of buying cheap milsurps are long gone. Have you seen the prices lately on a run of the mill Mosin? They used to be $90 a rifle. Saw an M44 for $800 the other day. Nearly blew my mind.....

It ain't 1973 and Cokes are no longer a dime, gas isn't forty cents a gallon and I'm not making $1.65 an hour at Safeway.
I still buy Cokes. gas and still make more than minimum wage.
Complaining about the "used to be" price of a milsurp firearm from decades ago isn't a valid argument against the 03FFL.....you didn't need a 03 to buy them then either.


If one cannot benefit from a 03FFL, you aren't trying.

I did this search on completed C&R auctions on GunBroker for auctions with no reserve:
https://www.gunbroker.com/Curios-Re...=4&View=1&NoReserve=1&Condition=4&Timeframe=1

 

[gunmechanic]

If i had the C & R and the fee of $30.00 is not a burden i would keep it .Think about it this way ,by surrendering it you are giving this MARXIST party and there ilk exactly what they want ! This group wants to pressure us into compliance . They want to see the numbers go down so they can brag to there followers.I look at it as a way to say no .Just my two cents for what ever its worth.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

I am a young guy who is forced to be buying milsurps at the correct prices. Yes seeing the old days of milsurp deals breaks my heart but honestly it is what it is. There are still deals to be had, here and there if you know where to look. Some importers still have specials and although the days of 20 dollar rifles in a barrel are gone, 300 dollars for a rifle that is still in military stock isn't bad either.
You can't be too attached to the concept that milsurps are 30 dollar rifles anymore. In a way they're undervalued as it is, just more people are realizing how good alot of them are.

 

[Rockrivr1]

It ain't 1973 and Cokes are no longer a dime, gas isn't forty cents a gallon and I'm not making $1.65 an hour at Safeway.
I still buy Cokes. gas and still make more than minimum wage.
Complaining about the "used to be" price of a milsurp firearm from decades ago isn't a valid argument against the 03FFL.....you didn't need a 03 to buy them then either.


If one cannot benefit from a 03FFL, you aren't trying.

I did this search on completed C&R auctions on GunBroker for auctions with no reserve:
https://www.gunbroker.com/Curios-Re...=4&View=1&NoReserve=1&Condition=4&Timeframe=1

Yawn..... Good for you. Still stand by my statement. C&R's are not as useful as they used to be.

 

[dogtown tom]

Yawn..... Good for you. Still stand by my statement. C&R's are not as useful as they used to be.

Again, the "usefulness" of the 03FFL has not changed. Not one bit.
What has changed is inflation, current importation and a growing population......meaning the market for guns is more competitive.

I think you equate "curio & relic" with "discounted pricing". Thats in your mind and not at all what the license is for.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

For me, and a great deal of other collectors the draw is the history.

Lots of, if not most, people will never understand that. Items have history. Items are history. Of course, some items have provenance, e.g. Audie Murphy's M1 Carbine, due its connection with an important figure or event. But every M1 Carbine has history because it is an example of the beginning of a move to intermediate caliber, lightweight rifles that was a revolution in military affairs. (The same could be said of the STG44.) I could write a book applying this philosophy to everything from firearms, planes, vehicles...even mundane household items. Everyone else sees a bunch of old junk. I'm still chafing at the people here who said we were stupid to buy CMP 1911s because you could buy much better 1911s cheaper from any modern manufacturer. That was never the point.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Everyone else sees a bunch of old junk.

I should, however, address my own bias and hypocrisy here. When I see a trash can full of garbage rods (Mosin-Nagant rifles) at a gun show, I see a bunch of old junk.

 

[dogtown tom]

Lots of, if not most, people will never understand that. Items have history. Items are history. Of course, some items have provenance, e.g. Audie Murphy's M1 Carbine, due its connection with an important figure or event. But every M1 Carbine has history because it is an example of the beginning of a move to intermediate caliber, lightweight rifles that was a revolution in military affairs. (The same could be said of the STG44.) I could write a book applying this philosophy to everything from firearms, planes, vehicles...even mundane household items. Everyone else sees a bunch of old junk. I'm still chafing at the people here who said we were stupid to buy CMP 1911s because you could buy much better 1911s cheaper from any modern manufacturer. That was never the point.

Amen

 

[jdc1244]

Having ended something of a new gun buying spree, I, for one, am tired of filing out 4473s and paying transfer fees.

The next gun-buying phase will be firearms over 50 years old, mostly revolvers, with the understanding that they’ll likely cost nearly as much as new.

The goal will be to find something perhaps unique, something although old, serviceable and in excellent condition.

Such is the joy and usefulness of the FFL 03.

 

[mgmorden]

I got mine back around 2003 and let it drop nearly 10 years ago. Prices on milsurps were good back then. When the rifle was $40-50, paying $25 for a transfer fee felt sort of like wasting money.

Even at that time though, pretty much all gun shipments required an adult signature on delivery and I was always at work during business hours, so I'd have to drive up to the UPS depot to pick up anything I couldn't get shipped via USPS. For handguns typically the requirement to use overnight shipping was more than the cheaper rate to a regular FFL + transfer fee.

Fast foward to today - most surplus is long dried up. Its available secondary market only where the costs are dramatically higher and so purchases are more spaced out. For me its not worth the record keeping requirements to bother with it. I buy no more than 1 gun per year that is C&R eligible. At $20 per transfer that's $60 in fees per 3 years versus $30 for the license plus potential inspections. No thanks.

 

[jonnyc]

Having ended something of a new gun buying spree, I, for one, am tired of filing out 4473s and paying transfer fees.

The next gun-buying phase will be firearms over 50 years old, mostly revolvers, with the understanding that they’ll likely cost nearly as much as new.

The goal will be to find something perhaps unique, something although old, serviceable and in excellent condition.

Such is the joy and usefulness of the FFL 03.

You'll NEED a Colt 1917, Colt Commando, S&W 1917, S&W Victory, Enfield MkVI, Webley Mk IV, and a Nagant...to start.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I've had mine for...25 years. Don't buy much with it, but I'm not strongly into MILSURP rifles. But it's useful for shipping things.

 

[Remington1911]

I should, however, address my own bias and hypocrisy here. When I see a trash can full of garbage rods (Mosin-Nagant rifles) at a gun show, I see a bunch of old junk.

And that could be accurate, that however does not mean that they are hunks of junk.

That is a bit confusing. This one or that one could be a hunk of junk, but that one there.....treasure.

And it goes the other way, a hunk of junk, something that will never work again can be a treasure.

Example, a worthless gun sitting in a museum.

 

[wayneinFL]

Everything that was available at the time of the GCA is already 50 years old. Every gun that the government was scared of at the time is already exempt. I don't see why that's still a requirement for a collector's license. They could do away with that.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

And that could be accurate, that however does not mean that they are hunks of junk.

That is a bit confusing. This one or that one could be a hunk of junk, but that one there.....treasure.

And it goes the other way, a hunk of junk, something that will never work again can be a treasure.

Example, a worthless gun sitting in a museum.

View attachment 1163633

In regards to Mosin-Nagant rifles, they're allllllll hunks of junk. lol.

PS: I've been to Springfield Armory NHS, and I've seen that rifle. They also have another rifle, I forget the model, that was struck by lightning while being carried by a soldier on guard at the Armory. Those two guns are "curios" for sure, but I doubt I would shell out any money to own either of them. Unless there is more to those stories, I don't see freak accidents as significant historical events.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

Unless there is more to those stories, I don't see freak accidents as significant historical events.

Its just really cool.

But if this was a nuclear wasteland, come on, I'd chop down the last 6 inches of that musket , reinstall the front band likeso and use it as a weapon again.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Its just really cool.

Yep.

But if this was a nuclear wasteland, come on, I'd chop down the last 6 inches of that musket , reinstall the front band likeso and use it as a weapon again.

You just hit on an entirely new topic of discussion: "What does your make-shift, cobbled-together, post-apocalyptic weapon say about you?"

 

[tark]

In regards to Mosin-Nagant rifles, they're allllllll hunks of junk. lol.

I had a New England Westinghouse Mosin that was such a piece of crap...it would shoot M.O.A with Norma 7.62X54 ammo...out to two hundred yards. Cobby and unsophisticated ? Sure was. A piece of junk...not even close.

 

[IJ1981]

Thank you all for the fine, informative and entertaining replies.

I've decided to keep the 03. $30 is less than what I spend for lunch every week.

You never know when you may want the advantages, as several posters have pointed out.

 

[tark]

Again, the "usefulness" of the 03FFL has not changed. Not one bit.
What has changed is inflation, current importation and a growing population......meaning the market for guns is more competitive.

Uhhh... Yep! Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[dogtown tom]

Everything that was available at the time of the GCA is already 50 years old. Every gun that the government was scared of at the time is already exempt. I don't see why that's still a requirement for a collector's license. They could do away with that.

It has nothing to do with guns the government was scared of and everything to do with the scary people that buy them.

The C&R was a way to regulate those who bought a lot of guns as "collectibles" vs those who were buying with the intent to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.
Thats where the fifty year old part of the law came into play. Most certainly there are guns that are less than fifty years old, but still collectible and the C&R FFL allows adding those to "the list".

The number of 03FFL's literally exploded between 1997 and 2013 (from under 17,000 to around 62,000)
It's an easy guess as to why.
In 1968, the "fifty year" line was 1918.....The Great War" and all the surplus from that war.
By 1997, the line was post WWII and all the surplus from that conflict.
As militaries around the world upgraded from bolt action>semiauto>select fire, they saw a way to raise easy cash, sell off the old stuff, buy new stuff. (Same thing US police departments do)

So the handwriting has been on the wall for decades. If all you care about is cheap, 4ft long rifles then you knew they weren't going to last forever.