Cylinder gap too tight. How to get it in spec?

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gp911

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Ok, thanks to you guys I discovered my mint 12-2 that has seen maybe 150rds in 35 years has a max cylinder gap of .0025. At first I was fine with it but, as Jim K noted, too tight means it's not really reliable for carry. I've read that when the revolvers were assembled final end gap was opened up with a file if it initially was too tight. Is that all there is to the story? What file? Isn't there a tool used to cut the forcing cone or something? I could always take it to a gunsmith, but if it is a simple file job I'll just buy the right tool for the job and go very slowly, measuring frequently until I get it around .006-.007. What do you guys think?

For those coming in late, I already measured endshake. It's virtually nil.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.
 
I would try throwing in a .002 bearing and see what happens. If it pushes the cylinder too far back you can always remove the bearing. A cheap and "reversible" place to start.
 
I wouldn't mess with it, should shoot pretty good . A tight fit is a problem when it gets dirty but for carry just keep it clean. I have a few that are that close and have never been a problem. I'd rather have one on the tight side as the loose side.
 
tight gap

My 3" 629 has a .003 gap. With 240 gr. LSWC it is good during a match for 75 rounds if it started out 100% clean like the day it left the factory. After that 75 rounds you begin to feel the friction between the cylinder face and the barrel. I have considered filing a slight amount up to another .002 for .005 total but so far I've left it as is.
 
Mine locked up solid after 40-50 rounds. Once I got it open it wouldn't shut completely for about 5 minutes. It's tight as tight can be.
 
To properly measure your B/C gap you need to do it from both sides of the cylinder as the rear of the barrel may not be cut square to the cylinder face. I had a gun that measured .003" on one side and .001" on the other.

This is quick and easy to fix with the proper tool which is not using a flat mill file. I like the b/c gap of .006" with smokeless powder and .008" for blackpowder. For reference the thickness of the average business card is .008". But I admit I am very demanding with my guns. I expect them to go bang every time I pull the trigger even in extreme weather and dirty.

For the cost it is much cheaper just to have a gunsmith do it and while he is at it have him recut the forcing cone.
 
A .002 blade just fits, with effort, and with the cylinder pulled back a .0025 just fits on the left but sticks tight on the right and will not pull through that side.
 
My S&W model 14-4 from 1977 Will just take a .002" feeler. I don't shoot It that much but It's never been a problem. I figured It's because It was built to be a target pistol.
 
The gap will often get smaller due to lead build up on the back face of the barrel when shooting lead bullets. The base of the bullet partially vaporizes from the burning powder and accumulates on the barrel base.

Many years ago I had a Ruger Security Six that locked up due to this and took it to a gunsmith. He simply put the gun in a vise and used a couple passes with a flat file on the back of the barrel to re gap it to spec checked with a feeler gauge.
 
Don't file on the cone yourself.
Free-handing there by a novice never turns out well.
Denis
 
That's the impression I'm getting too Denis. Methinks I need to find a competent gunsmith in the Columbus, Ohio area to recut the forcing cone. The bearing/bushing idea might work as well, but I'll let someone with experience make the call for me on that one. Thanks for all the responses.
 
I've read that when the revolvers were assembled final end gap was opened up with a file if it initially was too tight. Is that all there is to the story?

Howdy

Not quite. Filing is a slow process, much too slow to be done in production, and it requires a lot of skill to get the gap right without removing metal unevenly.

Somewhere I have a photo of the apparatus that S&W used to use to trim the butt end of a barrel to the correct length, but I can't put my hands on it right now. When the barrel was screwed into the frame the portion of the barrel that protrudes into the frame was purposely left a little bit long. The barreled frame and the cylinder to be used in the gun were placed on a special jig. The frame was secured down, and the cylinder was placed a few inches away on the fixture. A broach was used to trim the barrel to the precise length needed. A broach is a bar of steel with large, sharp cutting teeth cut horizontally across the bar. A broach like this cannot be used by hand, it is mounted in a power press that pulls it up or down past the workpiece to remove a precise amount of metal without any misalignment.

The way this fixture worked, the frame and cylinder were secured to the fixture. A 'feeler' or probe was then touched to the cylinder. This adjusted the amount of cut the broach would make to be perfect for that cylinder. Then in one stroke the broach removed the precise amount of steel from the butt end of the barrel. When this cylinder was later assembled to the frame, the gap would be the precise correct amount needed. But the gap had been set for that particular cylinder.

I dunno how it is done today. I suspect a CNC controlled cutter accomplishes the same thing. But that is how it used to be done, the photo I saw was probably from the 1940s or so.

*****

You need to understand that cutting the forcing cone and tuning the barrel/cylinder gap are two completely different things.

The forcing cone is the conical shaped surface on the inside of the butt end of the barrel. Look into the butt end of your barrel. The unrifled portion is the forcing cone. It is slightly larger in diameter at the rear than it is where it merges with the rifling. It functions as a funnel. Cylinder alignment with the bore in a production gun is almost never completely perfect. The forcing cone functions as a funnel, gently guiding the bullet from the cylinder into the rifling without marring it or damaging it. Without a forcing cone, most production revolvers would probably spit lead because the chambers are not perfectly lined up with the bore. Revolvers have had forcing cones from the earliest days in the early 1800s.

A forcing cone cutter is designed to cut the cone to a precise angle. Some guns leave the factory with forcing cones of various angles. 11 degrees is usually thought to be ideal. A proper forcing cone will keep leading to a minimum. Also, with an older gun, the forcing cone can become pitted and have a rough surface. So a forcing cone cutter is used to remove a tiny bit of metal to clean up the cone. If the cone is cut to excess, the wall of the cone will become very thin. That is when another cutter is used to remove a tiny bit more metal from the butt end so the wall will be a tad thicker. Doing this of course increases the barrel/cylinder gap.

Both of these cutters are used from the muzzle end of the barrel. A guide rod is inserted into the muzzle. The guide rod has a handle on the end to turn the tool. The cutting tool is screwed onto the other end of the guide rod. This arrangement keeps the cutter aligned with the bore so the cut will be perpendicular.

The only difference is, the forcing cone cutter is inserted into the forcing cone, the chamfering tool stays outside the barrel and cuts the butt end. The tool is turned slowly by hand with pressure applied forward.

Here is the cutting tool used to trim the end of the barrel.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/90-chamfer-cutter-prod26154.aspx

This is a forcing cone cutter.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/11-chamfer-cutter-prod26151.aspx

I strongly suggest you have a gunsmith who is well versed in S&W revolvers take a look at yours, to tell you if anything needs to be done to it at all. I have dozens of S&W revolvers. I have never had to trim the barrel on any of them.

P.S. A friend who is a crackerjack gunsmith has cleaned up the forcing cones on a couple of my very old revolvers. They were a bit pitted, so he cleaned them up a little bit. He did not remove enough metal to appreciably narrow the wall of the forcing cone, so no material had to be removed at the end.
 
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Thank you for the wealth of information DJ, that is good to know. I'll definitely be interviewing smiths for awhile before I let anyone touch the gun. I also need to shoot the gun again to corroborate my first experience with it.
 
Before cutting the cone end, you need to measure the headspace (gap) between the cylinder and the recoil shield and see if it is in spec or too wide. If the headspace is high and the B/C gap is small, it means the cylinder needs to be shimmed back a bit but that will require shaving the end of the extractor (ejector) where it hits the shield and installing a cylinder shim. I recall gap between the cylinder and recoil shield is supposed to be .062 - .064" (?)

Ok, thanks to you guys I discovered my mint 12-2 that has seen maybe 150rds in 35 years has a max cylinder gap of .0025. At first I was fine with it but, as Jim K noted, too tight means it's not really reliable for carry.

I don't think that is necessarily true since a carry gun only has to shoot a few rounds to "be reliable" for it's purpose, and won't get heated up from repeated firing. The official spec is .003" min.
 
Given that you will shoot at most one cylinder full during a self-defense gun fight (civilians don't reload during gun fights, they either win, lose, or run away with what they start the fight with already in their gun), I concur with previous posters that the gun is safe and suitable for carry.

I also agree that the too-tight gap is a problem I would want to get fixed if the gun were mine.
 
I don't think I addressed defense guns in the context of heat closing the b/c gap, since so few rounds would be fired in a S/D situation. But I don't think I would want to depend on that, and there is no "time out" signal in a gunfight. Any revolver I would carry would have a .006-.007" gap.

Jim
 
You can add a .002" shim on the end of the crane tube to move the cylinder back, but NOT IF THERE IS NO END SHAKE. You will bend the crane trying to close it.

If you have no end shake, you would need to shave the end of the ejector (where it meests the recoil shield) until you have .002" end shake then add the shim.

NOTE: this moves the cylinder closer to the recoil shield, be sure you have enough headspace or the cylinder will bind up on the rims of the fired brass.
 
So.... I'll weigh in.

I have a Taurus .357 wheel gun that I bought 5 or 6 years ago.

From the factory, it would lock up after a cylinder or two full of ammo. Timing was perfect with the gun. NO crud under the extractor ring. No cylinder shake - you know, all the usual stuff to check out. And, when the gun worked, it worked GREAT! Awesome trigger, accurate as hell.....

After more troubleshooting and binding up at the range, it was obvious that it was a cylinder gap issue, because I could clearly see where the crud and fouling on the forcing cone was scraping the cylinder face.

I could have spent $40 shipping it to Taurus and waited 6 months (their turn-around at the time).

Instead, I visited 3 or 4 'smiths in the area. Maybe the smiths in my area are inept, but none of them had the proper jig/tools to take a little off the forcing cone or shave it down square. They pointed me back to Taurus. Whatever.

So, with not much to lose, I bought a very fine file and took matters into my own hands. I was very careful to keep the file squared up to the forcing cone.

It literally took 5 or 6 light swipes of the file. I doubt I took .002 off.

For 4 years now, the gun has functioned 100% FLAWLESSLY. I shoot mainly hardcast loads with mild charges of 2400 - just about guaranteed to foul and lead up the gun, but a couple thousand rounds down the pipe and it's not had an issue since.

Although not even close to the most expensive revolver I own, it's the most accurate and fun revolver I own, hands down.

Would I file on a $2,000 custom wheel gun? Hmmmm, maybe not, I don't know.

Do I think some of you guys are over thinking this a bit? Maybe, but I am adventurous and the gun was "only" a Taurus. Your mileage may vary.

--Duck911
 
Before cutting the cone end, you need to measure the headspace (gap) between the cylinder and the recoil shield and see if it is in spec or too wide. If the headspace is high and the B/C gap is small, it means the cylinder needs to be shimmed back a bit but that will require shaving the end of the extractor (ejector) where it hits the shield and installing a cylinder shim. I recall gap between the cylinder and recoil shield is supposed to be .062 - .064" (?)



I don't think that is necessarily true since a carry gun only has to shoot a few rounds to "be reliable" for it's purpose, and won't get heated up from repeated firing. The official spec is .003" min.

This is what I was thinking too. This could be a cheap DIY fix if it could just take a shim. This would also help with any end shake that might have crept in over the years. This is where I would start before I enlisted a gun smith that may or may not make the problem worse.
 
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