CZ-USA: Bridging The G.A.P.

[CZF]

How many of you would have some interest in a 9mm/.40
sized alloy framed Compact CZ pistol in .45 GAP?

There seems to be the mindset of a lot of Americans and
others, that the .45 is the Only choice for serious personal
defense. This applies to the fans of Hi-Powers who carry
1911, only due to caliber preference.

At present, the superbly accurate but Huge CZ97B attracts
those people wishing a CZ, but only in .45 ACP. The 97B's
trigger reach is quite long and most shooters can't get a
good grasp. The 1911 offers much better trigger reach..as
does the SIG P220. Unlike the SIG, one can carry the CZed
cocked and locked. A feature that appeals to many 1911
fans annd owners. The mandated (by many) caliber and reliablilty is offered by CZ, just in the wrong platform.


The similiar Tanfoglio .45 (and 10mm) is smaller, and some
find it the perfect size. This get people into a CZ75 design
that fits and is in the Proper caliber. However, most would
opt for an even smaller and lighter pistol with a .45 bore.

This is where the GAP comes shinning thru. A slow welcome by
the shooting community, but many a gun company has taken
the task of bridging the gap, so to speak, offering this in
a few pistols. The cartridge has been shown to be the equal,
or even in some cases, superior to the stoic .45 ACP.

Merging the GAP and CZUB pricing, ergonomics, and legendary reliabilty.Looks to be an ideal answer to those CZ fans wanting a carry .45

 

[rbernie]

Let's ask this another way - why is it that Tanfoglio can make a CZ75 sized 45ACP, but CZ can't? Of all of the things I've heard about the Tan pistols, none of them have involved frame cracking or other things that would point to having downsized the frame inappropriately....

 

[Calhoun]

I think that I would rather wait and see if the .45GAP will be around in 10 years... 'cause I know that my CZ75B will be. And I'll still be able to feed it without too much trouble. I think that I would rather see a 75B in .45ACP. But then again, I don't feel under gunned with a 9mm.

Peace out,
Calhoun

 

[clipse]

Being a big .45acp fan and hearing stories about how it saved my grandfathers life in WWII, I am still not warmed up to the .45 GAP. It would be interesting though.


clipse

 

[Zundfolge]

Let's ask this another way - why is it that Tanfoglio can make a CZ75 sized 45ACP, but CZ can't?

I've been asking the same thing about 10mm

 

[clipse]

I thought I had read some where that the grip is bigger on the witness than on the CZ 75B.

 

[cratz2]

I thought I had read some where that the grip is bigger on the witness than on the CZ 75B.

But what I think he's talking about is that the difference between CZ97 and the larger framed 45/10mm/38 Super EAAs... THe CZ97 is a beautiful gun, to my eyes, the best finished handgun CZ makes, but as a carry gun, the grip and slide are kinda huge on the CZ97 while on the EAA 45s, 10mm and 38 Supers, unless you have them side by side a 9mm or 40, you might not notice a difference.

To the original question, I daily carry a PCR right now and if or when they come out with one in 40, I will buy one. And I must say that I didn't embrace the concept of the 45GAP at first, if they were to release a PCR or P-01 in 45GAP, I would be very, very tempted to pick one up. I believe the GAP is here to stay (if not quite dominate the world market ) but if one were to buy 2,000 rounds of ammo and reloading dies, you should be good to go for a long time.

 

[Sean Smith]

One thing to consider is that the 97B is a much stronger design than the EAA/Tanfolgio guns, not just because it is bigger but because it uses a completely different lockup design to handle the increased recoil energy. CZ built the 97B to have a long service life with the caliber.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I thought I had read some where that the grip is bigger on the witness than on the CZ 75B.

It *IS* bigger than the 75 grip, but smaller than the 97B frame. Noticeably smaller.

That's why I kept my Witness Sport Long Slide (in .45) and sold my 97B... The 97B was just a bit too big for my hand, while the large-frame Witness feels fine.

 

[CZF]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, the Witness .45/10mm is slightly larger than a
75B/85B, yet considerably smaller and lighter than the rather large and heavy
97B. A fine gun for the Range. but not so for daily CCW.

The demand for a 97B in 10mm or .400 Cor-Bon has been ignored over the
years. Same for any .357 SIG offerings. The GAP might be the exception.

Like the .40/.357 SIG, the GAP allows major caliber in a 9mm/.40 sized gun.
This would allow CZUB engineers to put the .45 GAP in something as small
as a .40 RAMI, or as large as an 85 Combat. Would probably work in a 97B
should someone really want the .45 Kurz. One market for the GAP that CZ
could intrude upon is the Military Calibers market. Like the .45 HP round..
GAP shooters would be allowed pistols in that caliber. This seems to be
the case with Italy and a few other countries that forbid military caliber
handguns. The USA market is much more lucrative. I've heard the figures
on what percentage us Americans buy of CZUB products. Canada has long
been a CZ country. They can even get the small CZs in .25 Acp or the 110
polymer pistols.

As for ammo and the GAP. I can't buy any brass cased CCI/SPEER 10mm
ammunition, but .45 GAP is being cranked out down the river from me.
I like the .45 ACP, yet feel that the GAP is worthy of a look.

Should you want the .45 GAP in a CZ pistol, or want to express your ideas
for your CZ dream pistol l. Drop CZ-USA an email.

[email protected]

You can also request a Free 2004 CZ-USA Catalog.

 

[Marshall]

First of all, I don't think too many folks buy a CZ 97B for a daily carry gun so, keep it around! If I can ever find one at a gun store to put my paws on and feel it first, I might flip the credit card right then if it fits me.

As for the 45gap, I believe it will be around for a long time to come. If I can pick up a PO-1 or a 75/85 in that caliber, I wouldn't hesitate. The same would go for many other brands/models of handguns. It's all about choices my friends, the more the marrier.

 

[cookhj]

i know this is slightly OT, but......CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE A P-01 IN .40S&W! PLEASE! I PROMISE I WILL BUY ONE!

 

[rbernie]

[the CZ97] uses a completely different lockup design to handle the increased recoil energy.

I'm confused. The CZ97 locks up on the slide's ejection port (a la Glock, et al) while the CZ75 uses radial locking lugs milled into the slide. But a radial locking lug design is successfully used in many 45ACP pistols that last a very long time, so I'm not sure that I'm understanding your point.

Also - when I compare the amount of metal2metal interface in a CZ97 lockup and in a CZ75 lockup, to me it looks like the CZ75 interface has at least twice the surface area....

 

[CZF]

Due to the demand for a .40 caliber P-01. The interim solution from CZUB
is the CZ40P. A combo of the P-01 frame and (discontinued ) CZ40B slide.
There are a few of them running around now. A limited edition of 1,200
if I remember right. Rumors of the P40 still surface, but for some folks
a .45 hole is better than a .40 hole. That is where the .45 GAP will fit
into the CZ lineup..should they decide to offer such.

As for the CZ40-P J&G SALES have them.

Check out the CZ40-P CLUB when CZF comes back online.


Email or PM for a pic from the CZ factory.

 

[George Hill]

I'll keep the Stoic version.

To me, the 97 is just fine... I would just like an "Officers" version.

 

[Sean Smith]

The CZ97 locks up on the slide's ejection port (a la Glock, et al) while the CZ75 uses radial locking lugs milled into the slide. But a radial locking lug design is successfully used in many 45ACP pistols that last a very long time, so I'm not sure that I'm understanding your point.

You don't understand my point because you are comparing apples to oranges.

The CZ-75 lockup was designed to work with only 9x19 recoil forces, the conceptually similar upper lugs in a 1911 were designed from the start to handle .45 ACP recoil forces (and beyond). Tanfolgio left the lockup essentially unchanged, but went from 9x19 to .45 ACP caliber, hence the guns don't hold up as well as their 9x19 counterparts (as more than one EAA/Tanfolgio gunsmith will tell you, e.g. DR Middlebrooks and George Smith at EGW). CZ realized this and devised a completely different lockup system designed to cope with the increased recoil forces going from 9x19 to .45 ACP.

Could CZ have come up with some beefed up radial lug system to do what the beefed up ejection port lockup does? Sure. But they didn't, they used a beefed up ejection port lockup. What is important is that they changed the design to handle the increased recoil forces, not how they did it, whereas EAA essentially didn't change the design at all to handle the increased recoil forces. Very simple.

 

[KadicDeshi]

Okay, I said this a little earlier in the 'What guns would you like to see them make' thread of the general handguns forum but saw this just now.

What I was thinking of was the 40B rechambered in 45 GAP. The 40B, to me anyway, is the best feeling of any handgun I've held. And combining its great feel with a .45 diameter bullet? Awesome.

I just can't help but think this is too good of a combination to easily dismiss.

Barrett

 

[agtman]

The CZ 97B is over-engineered for the mild energy levels produced by the .45acp.

Now a 97B in 10mm AUTO could use that size, weight and, most likely, stronger springs and run just fine. (Optional night sights would be great too ).

Why let Tangfoglio continue to dominate the "CZ-clone" market in 10mm with what is, in terms of quality control, a mediocre entry?

Well, there's no reason at all, really.

The 10mm and .45acp share the same feed-cycle dynamics, their COALs being almost identical. CZ could easily morph the 97B down to 10mm specs, provide dedicated 10-rd mags, and you'd have a high-quality 10mm on the CZ-pattern - from CZ.

Market-wise, there are already a legion of dedicated 10mm fans who typically own more than one gun in this caliber - and who wouldn't hesistate to add a CZ 10mm to their collection.

 

[CZ-100]

I agree agtman 10 mm all the way

 

[CZF]

The cries for a 97B in 10mm have seemed to fallen on deaf ears.

Even the Mec-Gar made 10mm Witness mags fit in the 97B.

CZUB looks at a world-wide market. They don't see the 10mm
as a contender. Sadly, they don't offer a .357 SIG, even though
S&B make .357 SIG ammo.

Should the best we get from them is more .40s and the .45 GAP.
I'm sure alot of CZ fans will be happy.

 

[Catbird]

I'm a recent CZ convert. I first bought a P-01 about 2 months ago. I then bought a 75B duotone. I bought my CZ 2075 9mm RAMI last week. Very nice pistols!

I would definitely buy an alloy-framed, P-01-sized CZ in .45 GAP.

 

[agtman]

CZF:

My point is, with but a modest down-sizing of the 97B's slide to 10mm specs (they could pretty much leave the frame alone), the addition of a 10mm barrel, stronger springs and 10mm compatible mags, CZ could easily and economically produce a 10mm unit for a cross-over market here in the USA.

And in short order a CZ 10mm would capture that market from Tanfoglio.

The U.S. market for the 10mm AUTO is actually bigger than most believe - as attested to by the incredibly rapid sales of Double Tap's line of high-performance 10mm ammo. Other producers, like Texas Ammo and Geo Arms, have as well shown strong 10mm sales.

In my view, CZ hasn't produced a 10mm yet because they haven't taken a serious look at the hard numbers involved in the 10mm's resurgence, i.e., in terms of more ammo sales and pistol offerings than we've seen in the last 15 years.

In short, for a modest investment in revamping an already existing unit, the pay-off stands to be pretty big. Not just from buyers who already own a 10mm and will jump on a CZ version, but in bringing in new buyers who've always wanted a 10mm pistol and are attracted to CZ's style and quality.

If MEC-GAR's 10mm mags for the Tanfoglio Witness fit the CZ97B's mag chute, that's even better, as that means there's already an existing 10mm magazine compatible with the 97B's full-size frame.

 

[CZF]

I agree with you. The fact is..that despite Glock selling every 10mm they
can crank out. CZUB is stubborn about the 10mm for some reason.

Should the FBI re-adopt the TEN on July 4th. Then things might like better
for a CZ in 10mm. The truth is that the Witness is the closest thing to a
Cee-Zed will will ever see.

The ONLY thing wrong with my Witness, is that it is not a real deal CZ.

 

[cratz2]

I'd still be willing to bet that the CZ P-01 or PCR in 40S&W would considerably outsell a CZ97 in 10mm. From a business perspective, I'd put more time into getting the 40 (along with the 45GAP if possible) onto shelves than I would with the 10mm CZ97.

Two questions though. Looking at the business end of the barrel of my PCR (which is obviously a 9mm) there isn't much metal left. It looks to me like a whole lot of stuff in the slide would need to be redesigned to make a 45GAP feasable. Is that true?

And on the 10mm CZ97... if you're going down in bore diameter, and mags are already available in the MegGars, if someone were to make a 10mm barrel that the 97 and you figured out which recoil spring you needed for your particular load, why couldn't you make your own 10mm 97? Please pardon my ignorance which I'm sure I'm showing, but it doesn't seem quite as complicated as if the gun was designed to be a 10mm and now you want to go to a .45" bore.

What am I missing?

 

[sturmruger]

No offense guys but everyone who insists the .45 ACP is better then the .45 GAP should really look into it a little more closely. From everything I have read about this new .45 and the guns it is shot out of it seems to me that it is really a non factor. There is very, very little difference. All of this talk about how your ACP is better then GAP is BS in my book. What is better about it? Everyone extols the virtues of a .45 caliber bullet, so what if the case is a few hundredths shorter. :banghead: Rant off