CZ-USA: Bridging The G.A.P.

[Nightcrawler]

What is better about it?

230 grain bullet at 950 feet per second. (.45ACP +P)
230 grain at 1150 feet per second. (.45 Super)

I've put both through my CZ-97B, with only a full length guide rod and a heavier recoil spring. I doubt you could do that in any .45GAP gun.

 

[agtman]

Cratz: on the CZ97B, what you're missing is the breech-face/slide issue between the .45 & 10mm cartridges.

The 97B's present .45cal breech face is not compatible with the specs of a 10mm/.40cal cartridge. They're not interchangable, although the frame most likely would be.

As well, a 10mm 97B would probably require a different extractor, although the ejector might work on both. These are "tweeking" issues, however. The main engineering problem is morphing the 97B's slide down to 10mm/.40cal specs, and then re-springing the unit to handle the more energetic behavior of the 10mm AUTO.

 

[Ivy Mike]

If CZ were to release a 10mm anything, I would have cash in hand at my favorite local dealer. The 97B would be great in 10mm.
My guess is that CZ would sell a lot more guns if they would chamber a few in .45 (GAP or ACP)

 

[cratz2]

Doh! What a rookie mistake! :banghead:

Sturmruger, in testing lab where ammo is right over there on the shelf and you don't have to pay for it and you don't need to worry about mixing up different brass for reloading, I think that on paper, the per spec 45GAP is just as good as the per spec 45ACP. But operating at higher pressures is a concern, mixing brass is a concern, the fact that pretty much every half way decent store with shooting supplies will have a variety of 45ACP, the ability to shoot the far more powerful 45 Super out of many ACP guns, a century of history rather than months of history... these are all things that some would argue make the ACP better than the GAP.

And keep in mind, I'm not even close to a 45GAP naysayer.

 

[sturmruger]

Cratz2

I agree with what you are saying those are all benefits to the ACP. I was mostly responding to comments like this.

Being a big .45acp fan and hearing stories about how it saved my grandfathers life in WWII,

I made the mistake of venting here when I should have posted this reply over on GT of the 1911 forum where they have been going on and on about this new offering from Glock. I am mostly frustrated with people going round and round about a topic that seems like a non factor to me.

I am sure that whoever gets shot with the .45 GAP will not look down and say "is that the new GAP round"

 

[clipse]

I was mostly responding to comments like this.

Being a big .45acp fan and hearing stories about how it saved my grandfathers life in WWII,

I never said that the ACP was better than the GAP. I simply stated that i hadn't warmed up to it. I can find no faults in the ACP and didn't understand (at first) why they would want to make it shorter. If you like it then great. Maybe someday I will too but I just haven't warmed up to it. (Not saying its inferior, just not for me)


clipse

 

[armoredman]

May I insert, as a very longtime Witness owner, (mine is one of the first 500 imported, and possibly THE first 40 Witness.), I have thousands of rounds through my gun with no failures. I replaced the recoil spring at 10,000 rounds because I felt like it, and the only other replaced part is the stock grips which became Hakans. I have a few friends with 45 Witness pistols, and they have no difficulty with them. The Tanfoglio product is venerated worldwide as an outstanding combat pistol, and up until recently, was an issue pistol in Israel. Most of the quality problems stem from EAA's less than mediocre service. I have had 6 Witness pistols, and if it weren't for financial problems along the road, would never have sold any of them. I never had a trouble with ANY of them. My wife carries a Witness Compact 40 wonderfinish, and is quite good with it.
I have had a CZ75 Compact, and would LOVE another. I also want the mythical CZ75 Compact 40 Melt, which CZ USA advertised 4 years ago, without a single gun coming in.
Don't let the low price of the Tanfoglio throw you off. Rugers are cheap, too, and they are decent quality firearms, as well.

 

[viking442]

CZF:
You've got this thread running all over the place.

My .02 cents

In smaller framed CZs, I'd much rather see .357 SIG.

The .357 SIG cartridge was developed jointly by SIGARMS and Federal Cartridge in 1994. The first gun chambered for it was the SIG P229 (my first SIG). It has become quite popular and has even been adopted by numerous law enforcement agencies. Aside from the increased powder capacity, the bottleneck case offers more reliable feeding...

IMHO, .357 SIG has more going for it than .45 GAP... but then I'm biased... .357 SIG is my favorite round. Almost any .40 S&W gun can more readily become a .357 SIG platform without the need for a new design... The candidates for conversion could include the 75B, 75 SA, CZ 75 IPSC, 75 Champion, 2075 RAMI, 40B and the 40-P.

To me, .45 GAP is a niche cartridge that offers no real advantage over what already existed. It is part marketing ploy and part fix for a gun manufacturer that puts out guns with unsupported chambers. It certainly will not prove to be any more effective than the better .40 S&W (RA40T) or 9mm (RA9T) rounds. One thing it will give you, really, is two or three fewer rounds in the same space. .45 GAP hype abounds on the shorter overall length but it pretty much glosses right over the fact that it is just as "wide" as the .45 ACP cartridge (.4510" for .45 ACP vs .4495" for .45 GAP). The only place it would actually make sense to me in a CZ would be the 97B. You'd get to keep 10 rounds and get a shorter trigger reach. As it is, my 97B fits me pretty well.

If .45 GAP takes off and becomes a market winner, thats great... but I would still rather see .357 SIG in the smaller framed guns from CZ. A flat shooting round from a CZ would be about as sweet as it is from a SIG.

Cheers!

 

[CZF]

CZ does need to offer .357 SIG and more .40s. There is still
a need for a compact .45. Should the GAP offer this possibility
this would be a good thing for some people.

Despite myself and a host of others pushing CZUB
to offer .357 SIG chambered pistols. There has not been
a hint of interest on the part of CZUB , other than a few
prototypes at the factory.

Other makers are jumping on the .45 GAP. CZ should
not rest on it's heels if they can make a compact .45,
GAP or not. They tend to use the platforms already
in the inventory. Has been years since CZUB designed
sometimng new, the RAMI and P-01 are modifications
of the Z-40/40B and PCR.

 

[Ky Larry]

I'd also like to see CZ's in more caliber-pistol combo's. I would definately buy a CZ-97B in 10mm. I think the problem is that CZ sells every gun it can make. They really have no incentive to offer new models. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Marshall]

Has been years since CZUB designed sometimng new, the RAMI and P-01 are modifications of the Z-40/40B and PCR.

Yes, you're right. It's also a big reason why CZ's pistols are priced at the point they are and, why they are reliable.