Dallas May Be Banning Toy Guns

[dracphelan]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/080806dnmettoygun.e85ed8.html

Dallas may drop the hammer on toy guns

Safety panel vote puts city closer to adopting strict ordinance

11:10 PM CDT on Monday, August 7, 2006

By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News

They're Americana slipped into the holsters of little boys in cowboy hats.

But after a 7-1 vote by the City Council's public safety committee, Dallas is closer than ever to passing one of the nation's strictest ordinances regulating the sale and possession of toy guns.

The committee directed City Attorney Tom Perkins to craft an ordinance that would ban all toy guns except those painted a bright color, such as hot pink or neon green, or made of transparent or translucent material.

The toys would also have to reflect light.

Toy guns that don't fit the city's paint/reflection criteria would be illegal even if kept inside a private home or vehicle, council members said.

"I would have liked to see the city absolutely outlaw toy look-alike replica guns, but to get anything progressive done in this part of the country is significant," said the Rev. Peter Johnson, who through the community activism organization Weed & Seed has advocated banning toy guns locally.

Dallas should model its proposal after New York City's toy-gun ordinance, regarded as one of the country's most stringent, the committee told Mr. Perkins. A small percentage of municipalities, including Plano, have also further regulated toy guns beyond a federal provision requiring toy makers to place an orange cap over gun barrels.

In recent months, many Dallas residents have expressed concern over what they say is children's easy access to inexpensive replica firearms, especially since numerous ice cream vendors and bazaar and flea market retailers sell the toys.

In recent years, police and private citizens throughout the nation have shot several children brandishing toy firearms after believing their own lives were in danger.

The council committee added the light-reflection provision after Dallas Police Deputy Chief Mike Genovesi testified that "under bad lighting, I don't know if the color is going to make any difference."

The committee didn't specify whether the paint itself should be reflective or whether reflective materials, such as a reflector on a bicycle spoke, would suffice.

Council member Mitchell Rasansky, who cast the lone vote against council member James Fantroy's motion, said the proposed ordinance doesn't go far enough.

"I want a total ban on these, period, etched in stone," Mr. Rasansky said.

Some council members worried, however, that a complete toy-gun ban would invite legal challenges that may delay enforcement.

"There isn't an awful lot of law on that at this point," Mr. Perkins said of a complete ban, noting that courts have affirmed the legality of New York City's ordinance. "It is possible. It has not been tested."

Said Mr. Rasansky: "I don't want to wait until two kids die."

The committee did not discuss specific penalties for selling or possessing toy guns. At the meeting's outset, Mr. Perkins presented the council committee with options that included prohibiting people from obscuring guns' orange tips and a total toy-gun sale and possession ban.

For Suzanna Reese, a supervisor at the Toys "R" Us at Dallas' Southwest Center Mall, any such toy-gun ban probably wouldn't affect the store.

"We just carry ray guns and laser guns," Ms. Reese said, adding that her store hasn't sold realistic-looking toy firearms for about five years.

As general manager of Collectible Trains and Toys in Dallas, Mike Belden has traded a vintage toy pistol here and there while tending to his primary business: trains.

He said he appreciates what council members are attempting to accomplish, as "a lot of the toy guns they sell now are strikingly realistic."

If Dallas regulates toy-gun sales and possession, Mr. Belden said he hopes council members would include a provision exempting collectibles.

"I grew up in an area where, if you didn't have twin six-shooters, there was something wrong with you," he said. "A ban like this would definitely be an issue for kids my age – I'm 57. These guns are neat, nostalgic items, and you're looking at basically criminalizing nostalgia."

More and more, I find myself wanting to leave this state. Way to many left coast liberals are setting up shop here.

 

[Old Fuff]

Most large, urban cities are left-wing strongholds with liberal values. Since this is unlikely to change for the better, the answer is to not live in large cities. I doubt that Dallas reflects the views of most Texas residents on this issue.

 

[HighVelocity]

Now any gang member can take a can of neon orange spray paint to a real firearm, stick it in a Toy store bag and walk around with it in plain sight. I think this is a really bad idea.

We've gone from "assume everything that looks like a gun is a gun" to "if it's a bright color, it's not a gun". This logic is extremely flawed.

 

[jlbraun]

I have a very stong pro-gun leaning, but I can support the viewpoint of banning realistic toy guns. Not the ACTUAL banning thereof, mind you. Just the thinking. If I'm a CHL holder and a 16 year old points an Airsoft at me (with the orange tip painted black, natch), just to scare me, how am I to know that it's not a .22 pistol? If I draw and fire, I may have just ended the life of a kid that was just screwing around.

 

[trueblue1776]

I agree with jlbraun to an extent, my toy guns were made out of sticks and wire when I was little, I still had a blast. But I remember buying a realistic Uzi squirtgun, that was sweet. Making laws to make laws sucks.

 

[foghornl]

Dallas, TX is one of the last places I would have expected to see such a story.

I have to agree, though, that most medium through triple-extra-large cities are very leftist leaning...


Perhaps this is not as big a surprise I had originally thought

 

[bclark1]

I personally want to thank parents who let their kids play with guns still. Kids played cowboys and indians years ago and they didn't head to dad's dresser for the real thing. The removal of toy guns is a symbolic act that further estranges much of our country from them. Granted, once someone is old enough to handle a real gun, they should be wise enough to handle properly. Most states would not back you for preemptively dropping someone that points a cap gun at you, though. It is clearly difficult, but I'd hope that even very scared people would order someone down before firing. The old "I'd rather be judged than carried" adage has always rung hollow for me; I'll hopefully avoid the former forever and the latter for a while. And if the worst happens, I'd rather pass on guiltless than sit in prison reflecting poorly on the people I care about and the shooting community. Some people will think that stands at odds with the decision to exercise one's right to self-defense. I think there are many very obvious opportunities to righteously defend oneself, but if you're questioning what you're defending yourself from, I think it should give you pause.

When I was little we used to put two clothespins together to make guns. But time went on, we got more resourceful, and I can remember trying to scare people with cap guns on Halloween, and using a permanent marker on squirt guns to try and make them look real, just because it had a bigger cool factor as a kid. Nobody ever had a problem.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

A 16 year old should know better than to point a fake gun at someone.

Banning toy guns is totally pathetic.

 

[ball3006]

You have to remember....

Dallas and Austin are so populated by people from the northeast and California they are now as liberal as any city in that part of the country. People from those two cities are no longer called Texans.........Fort Worth doesn't put up with such foolishness...chris3

 

[ArmedBear]

But I remember buying a realistic Uzi squirtgun, that was sweet

I have mixed feelings.

I think the idea of a ban on possession is just assinine. But I think a ban on the possession of just about anything is assinine, especially antiques.

However, some years back, someone was messing around with one of those Uzi squirtguns on the beach here, and came within a few pounds' trigger pull of being blasted by two cops (thank God they had Glocks or some other semi-unshootable early DAO). It was a busy day at the beach, there had been some violent crime in the area recently, and the cops were on edge. They also felt terrible about the whole situation. They told the reporter that they couldn't stop shaking afterward, because they'd come so close to killing a guy who was just relaxing with friends in front of his house.

Soon afterward, the things were no longer sold here. Now, squirt guns are more goofy-looking, but people still have fun on the beach without fear of being killed by the cops. I just don't think we should pass a law to regulate every bit of our behavior. I no longer feel free in California; not long ago, being here just plain felt different. All the laws put in place here have a lot to do with that.

Finally, I want my kids to play with toy guns. I think that it's actually an important part of development into a morally-aware adult.

And I also think that 16-year-olds can be held responsible for their own choices. Nothing pisses me off more than some news report that emphasizes that a robber was just pointing "a toy gun." What difference does it make, really? He's still a robber using the threat of death to victimize people.

 

[saltydog]

A 16 year old should know better than to point a fake gun at someone.

Maybe 30 years ago or more but these days, most kids are not raised by their parents anymore let alone that their parents instill some type of "common sense" into them! I see some parents as stupid "if not more" than their own kids!

I agree that banning toy guns is stupid.

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe 30 years ago or more but these days, most kids are not raised by their parents anymore let alone that their parents instill some type of "common sense" into them! I see some parents as stupid "if not more" than their own kids!

Well, then, natural selection might have to take the place of parenting.

I don't know. At 16, I had a number of real firearms in my closet. I didn't grow up in a log cabin, either. No matter what I felt as a teenager -- and we all go through all sorts of emotions during that time of discovery -- it wouldn't have occurred to me to shoot someone, or to point a real or realistic fake gun at someone. The idea of criminal activity, suicide, shooting up the school, or giving someone a scare for the thrill of it, was just that far from my mind. If I ever gave any such thing any thought at all, it was only to think, "I can't believe someone would DO that!"

I'm not even sure where I learned that, but I did.

 

[dracphelan]

1. To me, this is a symptom of the state going in the wrong direction. Dallas, Houston and Austin contain a large chunk of the Texas population. Every year, they have a larger percentage of the population. It will not be long until they have a large enough voice to control what happens in state government. I dread that day.
2. Why is it that law abiding citizens must be punished for "the children"? How many children are mistakenly shot by cops every year? Is it that big of a problem. I recall a couple of reported incidents in the suburbs about 3 years ago. The parents promptly took the toy guns away from the kids because they were stupid. Once the danger of toy guns are removed from children's lives, what is next? Is it the evil video games? Could it be non-educational cartoons? Or, maybe it will be those evil real guns? After you have a generation raised so that they aren't even allowed to play with a toy gun, how many will be afraid to even touch a real one? Do not forget, Laura Miller (the current mayor of Dallas) joined Michael bloomberg and several other mayors in a conference on how to increase gun control.

 

[ArmedBear]

I dread that day

You should.

California was known for free-spirited innovation until a few decades ago. Industry, crazy hobbies, new foods, whatever. It's a different place, and half the stuff that once defined California is illegal or highly restricted.

 

[witiku]

Nanny State for all children of the state

One more law to remove personal responsibility from people.

No where in that press release is there any mention of options to passing a law. Things like teaching children the consequences of threatening others with death. Hmmm A field tip to the county morgue oughta do it.

Where have we gone wrong as a society? Pass a law rather than trust reasonable people to act reasonably.

I've done my best to teach my kids to treat these paint ball and AirSoft guns as real guns.

That, I hope, is what they will need in life to avoid using these toys as tools to help them Carjack and Bank rob. No law banning their toys will do better.

To ban them deprives them of a part of growing up American. This has consequences too, maybe more tragic ones. Example: The United Kingdom.

 

[torpid]

Well, the Dallas folk can visit me in CA if they want to play with those "forbidden" realistic looking toy guns we still have here.

Hopefully they return the favor and let me try the "forbidden" real guns they have there.

.

 

[BrennanKG]

This measure makes me sad.

I am saddened that knee-jerk legislation is the esprit du jour.
I am saddened that AGAIN, the public (whom elect and re-elect the legislators) believes that curtailing objects is the answer to much of anything.

 

[Texfire]

I'm in the Austinite but still Texan group. Even worse, I'm kinda liberal in many of my political views. But guess what? I'm firmly pro-gun, I'm a cowboy action shooter, and I have my CHL. What does that do for your stereotypes? Probably about as useful as the neo-con mouth breathing murdering avatistic stereotype espoused by the gun grabbers.

I'm constantly amazed at the shortsightedness exhibited by the members of either of the major political parties. Rather than seek consensis and compromise they stake out positions and attempt to demonize. Gun rights are not, and should not be, a Republican issue nor is preservation of the environement a Democratic one. Conservative and Liberal are words that have lost all useful meaning and are used to dismiss rather than describe. I despair for the death of meaningful discourse and debate in this country at the hand of politically charged jargon.

Tex

 

[saltydog]

Well, then, natural selection might have to take the place of parenting.

Unfortunately I think it already has. I live in the country and am surrounded by houses. On 4 fronts I have been shot at 4 different times. 2 kids with a 22 on one front. 3 kids with a high powered rifle on the 2nd front. A crack head with a 9m/m pistol on a 3rd front and a parent with an SKS on a 4th front. Kids thought it was funny that bullets buzz over my tree's. So did parent with the SKS. And the crack head with the hand gun didn't care if bullets were flying by my place. All the kid's knew I was there watching them as giggling was going on while they were doing it. I got tired of all the BS and fired back with 3-30 round mags of .223 from my AR15. Then I called the Sheriff. Things got quite real quick. Thats how I know some kids and even some adults don't give a **** about you or me when it comes to firearm responsiblity let alone pointing toy guns a cops. I can almost understand why some people want gun control even though I don't. I just hope I don't have to kill someone under age.

 

[Autolycus]

I live in a town that banned airsoft guns. I am tired of being told what is good for me and what is not good for me. This whole nanny protective state is getting me angry. I want to be able to buy cigarettes with a lower tax (I know they are bad for me), I want to buy toy guns that look realistic, I want to buy airsoft guns, I want to be able to carry a gun, I want my gun to hold more than 10 rounds, I want a bayonet on my gun, I want a rifle with a 30 round magazine, I want a flash suppressor, and I want my government to mind their own damn business.

I will worry about my own safety.

 

[dracphelan]

I'm in the Austinite but still Texan group. Even worse, I'm kinda liberal in many of my political views. But guess what? I'm firmly pro-gun,

I understand. I have quite a few friends like you. However, the cities are where most people from out of state move to, especially the anti-gun types. I have a couple of friends who are what most Texans would consider tree-hugging hippies (who happen to like guns) (also, I'm not far from them). They went to San Francisco for a year of school. While there, they were called right-wing fascists for their views. Classic Texas liberals have always been different from east & west coast liberals. They have been more of the leave people alone type, rather than the government knows best type.

BTW, I'm voting for Kinky.

 

[jerkyman45]

I bet that would ban airsoft guns too, because under federal law theyre classified as toys. Just another stupid law written by stupid people.

 

[PCGS65]

This just makes me every time I hear about such ludicrousness.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Realistic toy guns are a bad idea in America. Maybe in Japan or Singapore where no one expects to encounter a real gun, perfect airsofts are not a problem, but in Dallas ("my florist is armed in Dallas"), having children playing with anything that looks like a gun is a bad bad idea.

If some ten-year-old pointed something at me that looked like a gun, I have about a quarter of a second to decide, "is this a real gun? Is this a real threat? Is now the time for me to use lethal force on a 10-year-old child in order to save my life?" That's a no-win situation for all parties.

 

[bamawrx]

My 10 yr old son is making realistic toy guns from wood to sell at a local festival. I'll let you guys know how it goes. They are VERY realistic, in fact some models are amazing to look at. No orange on these babies! The kids love them in our neighborhood too.

I had realistic toys when I was a kid and they only help the imagination. Its more fun and teaches good lessons. The logic that bans realistic toy guns is the same one that bans mean looking real guns. Pathetic is right.