Debunking the TKO myth

[Offfhand]

Will everyone who responded to this thread, and who have also hunted and killed elephants, please raise their hands.
Thank you, and have a wonderful Christmas with a New Year filled with many shooting successes.

 

[Kachok]

Wo now boy. There anin't no need to start red lettering people now, you ain't Jesus Christ save that for him
So what you are saying is what I have been saying for years now that TKO is absolutly nonsense when comparing high speed rifle cartrages to low speed big bores, right? That across a broad spectrum of rifle calibers it is by far the most innacurate of all the rattings, values, and formulas? My point exactly
Don't tell me that I refuse to hear it beacause I posted that same oppinion a good while back if you just read. I did specify that TKO could give us a difference in power between a .45-70 and a .50-90 but that common sences could more easly tell us that, as well as OGW, Lethality Index...etc. OGW formula places alot of it's score on momentum not just KE, so in all reality it does favor much heavier bullets rather that higher speeds I could show you a thousand examples of this. Every time I calculate loads of various weights from my reloading manual OWG always gives the heaver bullet a more favorable score by a heathy margin.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Will everyone who responded to this thread, and who have also hunted and killed elephants, please raise their hands.
Thank you, and have a wonderful Christmas with a New Year filled with many shooting successes.

Here's one..

 

[Kachok]

This thread is not about shooting elephants in the head, it got off on a tangent a while back but that is not the subject matter of the OP. Soft tissues damage of projectiles debunking the long held TKO factor is the name of the game and people trying to find such dramatic fault with the other game formulas too no avail.

 

[CraigC]

So what you are saying is what I have been saying for years now that TKO is absolutly nonsense when comparing high speed rifle cartrages to low speed big bores, right?

Exactly! The issue is that you can't "debunk" a formula because it doesn't work when you use it wrong. I don't know who "they" are, who you feel a need to correct, but if they are using it to compare big bores to small bores they are using it wrong. It's about like "debunking the myth that Honda Civics can be used for excavation". That's a little extreme but I'm making a point.

I did specify that TKO could give us a difference in power between a .45-70 and a .50-90 but that common sences could more easly tell us that

I'm sorry but you can't argue that you need a formula for one set of cartridges but say "it's just common sense" for another. This thread could use a big dose of common sen(s)e.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Don't tell me that I refuse to hear it beacause I posted that same oppinion a good while back if you just read. I did specify that TKO could give us a difference in power between a .45-70 and a .50-90 but that common sences could more easly tell us that, as well as OGW, Lethality Index...etc. OGW formula places alot of it's score on momentum not just KE, so in all reality it does favor much heavier bullets rather that higher speeds I could show you a thousand examples of this. Every time I calculate loads of various weights from my reloading manual OWG always gives the heaver bullet a more favorable score by a heathy margin.

ONE BIG DOSE OF COMMON SENSE AS ORDERED.

Kachok,

You seem to do a bunch of talking and not much listening. TKO was devised by Taylor to estimate the ability to knock out an elephant. It is by his explanation a rough estimate because some rounds with a low TKO perform WAY better than TKO would estimate IE the .375H&H, and some with a high TKO perform worse than it would estimate IE the .600 NE.

When hunting elephant the TKO has validity. I've recommended several very good resources to you so that you can see for yourself how a bigger diameter heavier round performs on a elephant vs a smaller lighter one, a perfect side by side comparison. And you've seemed to completely discard my advice.

With that in mind maybe you should consider a tuskless or a cull elephant hunt in May in the Zambezi valley when the bush is still thick and green. You'll get to experience multiple charges and rushes at close range with enraged cow elephant you'll spend half your time running for your life and many tense moments holding a sight picture on a cheeky old cows head where if she takes one more step you'll get to try out ole Taylor's TKO formula first hand because I GUARANTEE you as a neophyte you'll miss the brain on that frontal shot the first couple of times you try it. When you do miss the brain on that frontal shot you'll get to experience first hand what ole Pondoro was trying to get across.

The price is very reasonable heck you can do a PAC elephant hunt or tuskless for about what you can do a good guided elk hunt for here in the USA. Make sure and book in at least two preferable three or four elephant. After you've done that come back here and tell us all how flawed Taylor's TKO really was.

You see after you've killed an elephant and after you've seen a few killed you'll start to understand what Taylor was getting at with his TKO. And when using the chart as it was meant to be used IE head shooting elephant you'll see that it is a very valid comparison even today.

Until you've got a packy or two under your belt this all just internet BS because you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Taylor's TKO and how it was intended to be used.

I'll tell you this one more time. Go get Buzz Charlton's DVD and watch it. You'll see what Taylor was talking about. It isn't like being there but it's pretty darn good, the best elephant hunting DVD on the planet.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Here, I'll settle this argument with some authority!

Kachok, you tape the OGW formula to a Bull Elephants head, H&H, you tape the TKO to a Bull Elephants head.

Kachok, you stand there with your 6.5, H&H you stand there with your .500NE double

Ill go back and point the Bulls toward you and PISS THEM OFF AT YOU. Whoever survives,
WINS

 

[H&Hhunter]

Ok but Kachok gets to go first..

Because I've been around enough elephant in the wild to know that I am NOT the man to reliably stop one on a frontal charge even with a .500 NE..

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

The only comparable animal I have hunted (and it is not really that comparable) is charging Bison. Frontal shots on a charging Bison are pretty damn tough to say the least. That is a MASSIVE skull to get through and they, like a grizzly bear, move their heads like a boxer when charging. I personally would not want some fast mover cartridge rifle in my hands. Having EXPERIENCED it, I KNOW that I want all the lead I can muster to throw at it.

 

[Kachok]

I know H&H I was listening to you, and I have already made note about the intended purpose of the TKO factor earlier in the discussion. Pretty much the same as you just made. In the OP I stated that it was not even intended to calculate soft tissue damage, but people assume that it does. THAT is what I am here to debunk, not that larger heavier bullets don't stun elephants as well. For any hunter that uses shots through the vitlas the TKO formula is pointless, even counterproductive at times. Larger diamiter bullets don't automaticly do more damage than smaller diamiter bullets of the same momentum/energy there are just way too many other factors involved. These caveman ballistics has followed us into the 21st cantury. Make a post on the handgun forum aboug getting a 40S&W for stopping power and without fail somebody will jump in and tell you that the .45ACP is vastly superior. When you ask why they think that the quazi educated ones will always point to the TKO factor as justifacation :banghead:

 

[Kachok]

For the LAST FRACKING TIME this thread has NOTHING at all to do with shooting elephants in the skull it is about soft tissue damage. Read the OP or ****!

 

[H&Hhunter]

Make a post on the handgun forum aboug getting a 40S&W for stopping power and without fail somebody will jump in and tell you that the .45ACP is vastly superior. When you ask why they think that the quazi educated ones will always point to the TKO factor as justifacation

We are in agreement. Don't use TKO for what it wasn't intended for I.E. don't use a bridge building formula as recipe to bake a cake.

TKO isn't about what a bullet will do to the vitals of an animal it's about what it'll do if you miss the brain of an elephant. So yes people are taking it out of context.

Case in point I shot this hog with a .470 with a 500 gr Woodleigh SP. It blew right through without expanding as you can see from the exit hole. She ran off like nothing happened and bled out within about 80 yards. All the TKO just blew straight through her. Now If I would have hit bone that's another story entirely. When you do that it crushes them to ground like they've just been struck by the hand of Thor!

 

[Kachok]

THANK YOU it is so hard to get paople past their sarcasm on the internet sometimes LOL

 

[Kachok]

Now as far as shooting chargeing dangerous game goes, I don't know if I would apply any TKO factor to my choice of wepons, but you better beleve that I would be packing the hardest hitting monster my shoulder could handle Love my 6.5 and all but I have never had to take a shot on an anamal when my life was at risk so I opt for whatever gives me the greatest margin of error, and has the quickest followup shot.
BTW NICE double rifle! I love those old guns.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

THANK YOU it is so hard to get paople past their sarcasm on the internet sometimes LOL

Sarcasm on the net???? Say it aint soooooooooooo!!!!

 

[Warhawk83]

I dream of hunting elephant on the dark continent some day, though I will probably never make it. I have no technical expertise or experience to add to this thread. However, I will say this, if I do make it over there for an elephant hunt I will use nothing less than a 45-70. I don't wanna be mauled to death by a giant land animal I could have easily avoided and using a lower powered weapon when others are available just seems to be tempting fate a wee bit too much for my taste.

 

[Kachok]

I think the majority of the confusion reguarding killing formulas stems from the fact that bullets don't all kill the exact same way.
Some high SD spritzers create devestating soft tissue damage, a huge crater that extends through the vitals of a tipical sized game anamal. Absolutly remarkable amounts, the 140gr .264 cal and 180gr .30cal are exellent examples of this, if you mesured the volume of their wound canals vs the ammount of KE/momentum/whatever you would see they are disproportionate in terms of sheer damage done. But tipicaly their huge crater of damage does not extend very deep, even if the bullet itself penatrates 24+'"
In comparison the large bore rifles with flat point solids produce much smaller PEAK wound canals, but they make a consistant .75"-1.25" wound canals that extend very deep 40+" at times! These won't cause the dramatic bang-flops that higher speed/rapid expanding bullets can cause because the level of "shock" is not even close, but any big game hunter will tell you that these long consistant wound tracts are ideal for ensuring that you deal a lethal dose of damage to the vitals of thick boddied thick skin game. A shock inducing high speed bullet on the same anamal might be little more then a flesh wound since his hide/fat/muscle might very well be thicker then the length of the shock crater they make.
So to compare the wounding effects of a 45-70 to a 30-06 is all relitave to the anamal it is being used on, not what formula you are using. In terms of NET tissue destruction the 06 will always win, in terms of damage to the vitals on very large game the 45-70 FP solid is superior to any high tech .30cal bullet ever invented.
I hope everyone understood all of that technobable, I wanted to post illistrations to make it easier but for some reson they are not compatable with the format here.

 

[Float Pilot]

I would have a VERY hard time beleving that the 338fed has almost twice the power. A very very hard time. 6.5x55 is a very common elk/moose rifle in Europe where I lived for four years. They hold it's killing power in the highest reguard, I somehow don't see the 338Fed surpassing that power by that much.

Hmm, but your beloved OGW showed almost the same results...
What,,, now that does not count..??

Yes the 6.5 Swede has been used historically for Scandinavian Moose. No doubt since there were thousands of free Govt' issued 6.5x55 caliber rifles in every Swedish home for a 100 year time period.
And I can tell you first-hand that the 6.5x55mm also does just fine with the much larger Alaskan Moose with proper shot placement, just like a 30-30 will do for that matter.

But, you should not discount the larger heavier bullet advantage. I note that while talking about harvesting deer and hogs down south, that you did not mention also using a larger caliber rifle for larger game elsewhere.

I personally have not used a 338 Federal for anything either. I have yet to create an excuse to buy one. However, I have used a 358 Winchester "M-99 savage", which as you know is based upon the same 308 case. Within 200 yards the 358 Winchester does very well with 200 and 225 grain bullets.
While not a flat shooter like my 6.5mm Swede, the rippling shock wave across the hide of the couple large caribou and one large black bear that I whacked with the 358win (225 gr Kodiak Bonded bullets) certainly seemed to have more whammy than the 6.5Swede.

 

[Kachok]

The differernce between OWG of the 6.5x55 and 338 fed is closer to 1/3 more, not twice as much. I put more stock in heavier bullets then I do in larger caliber alone. Now for the most part larger caliber ARE the heavier bullets but some smaller calibers can effectively use very heavy for caliber bullets. The 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cal being the prime examples of that. Their standard factory twists in their popular chamberings will stabalize 160gr 175gr and 220gr respectivly, all of which make a heck of an impact and are effective well beyond their OGW and LI values, and FAR excede their TKO value. The terminal performance of these bullets is vastly more important that any value that ANY formula rates them weather it be TKO, OGW, LI...etc. Historicly the most consistant performers in the ballistics world are high SD controled expansion bullets and large caliber flat point solids. Either is deadly in it's own way. Though a bit slower to drop anamals on avarage I do have to rate the hefty solids as being more "Murphy Proof" seeing as the simply refuse to deflect at all even aginst very hard bone. This won't show up on any ballistics gel test but it does have real world applacation since very few shots are at the perfect angle or hit EXACTLY where you were aiming.
Unlike many other opponents of the TKO system I do not despise large calibers (quite the opposite actualy), nor do I push any "pure energy" formula or advocate the use of 223s/22-250s for big game hunting. But for a formula to say that a 25-06 or 6.5x55 is not an effective deer slayer is a touch on the crazy side if you ask me, and hence should be debunked as a broad spectrum ballistic comparison.

 

[Coal Dragger]

While all of these theoretical situations are very interesting and stimulating to consider (maybe even more so than the bourbon I am enjoying right now) I think all of you are forgetting one thing. That is that the correct answer to all your hunting problems is a flame thrower. Never mind the excessive weight, illegality in most... OK all states, the meat damage, or the limited range. It kills with pure heat energy, just showing that energy alone can and does kill!

You get the added benefit of instantly de-furring, skinning, and cooking your game.... albeit with a slight tinge of petrol flavoring.

Did I also mention that I am somewhat intoxicated?

 

[Kachok]

Um heat is energy too last I checked. So insted of 3,200 ft lbs now we kill with 2,890,000 BTU. Forget blood trails just follw the smell of burnt hair LOL
I think it would be an intresting cross comparison to relate high power small calibers to a streight case big bore in terms of efectivness. For example I would say that within a 100 yards there is nothing I would use my 6.5x55 on that I could not use a 44 magnum carbine on with just as much confidence and vice versa. They are both plenty of overkill for deer, they are both a step up in power (not KE) from the 30-30, they would both make a great close range elk gun with careful bullet selection. 44 mag TKO 26 vs 6.5x55 TKO 14, and for you pure energy guys 1583 ftlbs vs 2350 ftlbs OGW says 443lbs vs 611lbs. Momentum is nearly identical. I don't think any hunter or deer would ever know the difference inside of the 44s effective range, what do yall think?

 

[CraigC]

In the OP I stated that it was not even intended to calculate soft tissue damage, but people assume that it does. THAT is what I am here to debunk, not that larger heavier bullets don't stun elephants as well. For any hunter that uses shots through the vitlas the TKO formula is pointless, even counterproductive at times.

Yes, the TKO factor does correlate nicely with a cartridge's propensity to penetrate deeply and break large bones. Yes, it is relevant to soft tissue damage. Larger diameters and heavier bullets result in higher scores. Larger diameters create large holes, larger wound channels and heavier bullets create deep wound channels.

I think the majority of the confusion reguarding killing formulas stems from the fact that bullets don't all kill the exact same way.

In comparison the large bore rifles with flat point solids produce much smaller PEAK wound canals, but they make a consistant .75"-1.25" wound canals that extend very deep 40+" at times! These won't cause the dramatic bang-flops that higher speed/rapid expanding bullets can cause because the level of "shock" is not even close, but any big game hunter will tell you that these long consistant wound tracts are ideal for ensuring that you deal a lethal dose of damage to the vitals of thick boddied thick skin game.

. The terminal performance of these bullets is vastly more important that any value that ANY formula rates them weather it be TKO, OGW, LI...etc. Historicly the most consistant performers in the ballistics world are high SD controled expansion bullets and large caliber flat point solids. Either is deadly in it's own way. Though a bit slower to drop anamals on avarage I do have to rate the hefty solids as being more "Murphy Proof" seeing as the simply refuse to deflect at all even aginst very hard bone. This won't show up on any ballistics gel test but it does have real world applacation since very few shots are at the perfect angle or hit EXACTLY where you were aiming.

On these points we are in 100% agreement.

But for a formula to say that a 25-06 or 6.5x55 is not an effective deer slayer is a touch on the crazy side if you ask me, and hence should be debunked as a broad spectrum ballistic comparison.

Some folks are just hard-headed. TKO doesn't tell us that at all. Because we're supposed to be smart enough NOT to use it to compare small bore, high velocity rifle cartridges using expanding bullets. It is NOT a broad spectrum ballistic comparison. Was never intended to be. I'll ask again, WHO is using it this way? Nobody here. Nobody here is arguing with you on this point.

 

[Kachok]

I have had MANY people argue TKO with me in relation to soft tissue damage, both in the rifle world and especaly in the context handguns. I always get caveman termianl ballistics, they just assume that a 45 caliber bullet makes a 45 caliber hole, and if it expands to .60" then it makes a .60cal hole, those people have NO IDEA how dynamic a bullet can be in soft tissue especaly at high speeds. I show them this video and it always shuts them up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I
That bullet blew out three sides of that 6x6x16 gel block and penatrated the full 16" still making a huge wound canal on exiting. Please note the spiral wound tract, this is caused by the edges on the bullet cutting tissue before the shock wave of the bullet force them to rip open further, that is a perfect example of focused stress, not just shock. That is aprox a 10" diamiter wound tract from a .30cal bullet!! Bloodloss from such a wound would be stagering seeing as nearly all that tissue was not just "stretched" but cut and torn which it won't bounce back from.

 

[CraigC]

It sounds to me like the problem is not the TKO forumula or its results when used properly, but the incorrect application of it. Or more bluntly, ignorance. Has that gone on here at THR?

 

[Kachok]

YES! Big bore cliber worship has gotten so bad we have people talking about going deer hunting with 45ACP! Big bores are great I love them to, but a 45 handgun is not a suitable or ehtical deer hunting wepon. Not all of them call it the TKO formula but the same mindset applies. I firmly oppose the use of any 45 ACP, or 9mm, or 223 or 30 carbine for hunting large anamals none of them create sufficient soft tissue damage for reliable quick kills. TKO junkies site the fact that the 45ACP has the same TKO score as my 6.5x55 which we all know means nothing, no 45ACP load will even apporach the amount of damage a 6.5x55 or 30-30 does, not even close.