Totally respect where you are coming from here Archangel and your concerns for yourself and your neighbors are justified. Still, bear spray deters bears. Darn sure will work for a dog. Err on the side of caution is I think, best advice for stated scenario.
Defense against dogs......
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Buck13
Member
No, that was meant just as an example that the LCR was easier to handle under recoil than I expected! No bear loads in the city!
The +P 125 gr JHP idea seems more reasonable. Or maybe these little babies ahead of 4.5 to 5 grains of HP-38 would limit over-penetration:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...ducts_id=232&zenid=mq6i334cqufoso9utghnhfah30
Might limit it a little TOO well...
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pepper spray has worked for me
out jogging one evening at twilight, I came around the bend of my surburban block to find my neighbor had left her gate unlocked, & two very large dogs of a breed known as a Presa Canario were out in the front yard. see this link for an idea of what they are like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perro_de_Presa_Canario
Long story short, it was getting dark, & I didn't see them until they were about 5 feet away, approaching rapidly & growling. I got them to slow their run momentarily by yelling, & was able to spray my pepper spray (Fox brand, 2oz can) right in front of them in a line. Gave the closer of the two a spray in the face. Both turned rapidly & ran quickly back through their open gate.
Pepper spray worked for me then, & thankfully I didn't have to expose/use my concealed carry piece in a busy suburban neighborhood. Getting bitten by two dogs that size was not an option.
out jogging one evening at twilight, I came around the bend of my surburban block to find my neighbor had left her gate unlocked, & two very large dogs of a breed known as a Presa Canario were out in the front yard. see this link for an idea of what they are like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perro_de_Presa_Canario
Long story short, it was getting dark, & I didn't see them until they were about 5 feet away, approaching rapidly & growling. I got them to slow their run momentarily by yelling, & was able to spray my pepper spray (Fox brand, 2oz can) right in front of them in a line. Gave the closer of the two a spray in the face. Both turned rapidly & ran quickly back through their open gate.
Pepper spray worked for me then, & thankfully I didn't have to expose/use my concealed carry piece in a busy suburban neighborhood. Getting bitten by two dogs that size was not an option.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Poor old Pitbulls. They get the blame even when they're not involved...and about 95% of the time, they're not.
Whilst takin' a leisurely evening stroll around the hood, a walking stick, about 5 feet long and 5/8ths inch in diameter is about as ideal a defense as you'll find and you don't have to worry about the lawyer that's attached to every bullet.
Unless the dog is specifically trained to avoid a weapon, he'll lock onto the first thing he comes to...which would be end of your pointy stick...which you then shove down his throat.
Most dogs won't press it even far enough to grab the stick. When met by an aggressive defense, they normally back off. For the ones that don't...once they discover that they can't hurt you, and you can hurt them...that's usually the end of the matter.
And you don't get sued for shooting someone's dog...and you don't get to be the target of their angst at 0-dark-30 some night of their choosing...and you don't have to justify firing your gun in a built-up populated area...and there's no worry about the kids playing dodge ball in the yard 2 blocks away.
The gun should be considered as the last resort instead of the first response. Everything is just simpler when you can avoid gunplay.
Whilst takin' a leisurely evening stroll around the hood, a walking stick, about 5 feet long and 5/8ths inch in diameter is about as ideal a defense as you'll find and you don't have to worry about the lawyer that's attached to every bullet.
Unless the dog is specifically trained to avoid a weapon, he'll lock onto the first thing he comes to...which would be end of your pointy stick...which you then shove down his throat.
Most dogs won't press it even far enough to grab the stick. When met by an aggressive defense, they normally back off. For the ones that don't...once they discover that they can't hurt you, and you can hurt them...that's usually the end of the matter.
And you don't get sued for shooting someone's dog...and you don't get to be the target of their angst at 0-dark-30 some night of their choosing...and you don't have to justify firing your gun in a built-up populated area...and there's no worry about the kids playing dodge ball in the yard 2 blocks away.
The gun should be considered as the last resort instead of the first response. Everything is just simpler when you can avoid gunplay.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Bear spray is a good idea and can be bought and carried by your mom tomorrow.
Dogs are not hard to kill so I suggest you buy the gun you can shoot well. Any name brand SD ammo will also work well. It's only a dog remember. The last dog I saw stopped was done with a 22LR.
Dogs are not hard to kill so I suggest you buy the gun you can shoot well. Any name brand SD ammo will also work well. It's only a dog remember. The last dog I saw stopped was done with a 22LR.
MedWheeler
Member
Threads like this one do good to remind me that I should really start carrying pepper (OC) spray again. I have a couple canisters around; just haven't made the habit yet. There are plenty of pits in my neighborhood, too, and many are not well-restrained/confined.
Look into a 44 magnum and keep in mind you have the option to use 44 special in the same revolver.
In 357 I like the 135grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel.
If you end up with a 357 revolver then the Speer Gold Dot 38SPL+P Short Barrel is also an option for good dog medicine.
I second the advice of going out right now and getting every household you care about a nice big can of Bear Spray.
Get yourself another can that you can carry with you, it's always a nice option to choice from.
One thing about the spray that it has over a gun is that you can go ahead and pull it out just as soon as you see one of the dogs, even when it's still half way down the block.
Just my extra 2 cents here; get a record of reporting these dogs to Animal Control yesterday.
Heaven forbid you have to paint the yard with the neighbor dogs brain but if you do it'll help a lot when it's shown there is a history of the dogs being trouble.
Hope your neighbors can get their dogs under control soon!
DeMilled
I've used 22LR on two dogs and the only one shot stop was into the top of the skull, fired pretty much straight down into the skull from about four feet away and that one took a couple steps before it laid down. The other dog took something like five of them to the chest and neck before it died, it was a full grown chow sort of mix and not even the biggest one I've seen.
I would not under estimate what it takes to kill a dog.
Some will run off after just a BB gun hits them, others you need to kill outright...
AKElroy
Member
I would go with something pretty hot and a bit heavy. 158 gr .357 would work out of an sp101 or model 19 smith. As others have stated, pit bulls go closer to 80lbs. My boxer is 101, solid muscle.
I would also second pepper spray. He can't easily bite you if he can't see or smell you. Chances are good he will be rubbing his face and muzzle on the ground if he gets a good snort of the stuff.
I would also second pepper spray. He can't easily bite you if he can't see or smell you. Chances are good he will be rubbing his face and muzzle on the ground if he gets a good snort of the stuff.
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Zaydok Allen
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This is a really bad suggestion. He lives in a city, and he says overpenetration is a major concern in his neighborhood. A hot loaded 158 gr. .357 has a lot of potential to keep traveling after hitting the target.
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RealGun
Member
Consider snake shot as your first round then reassess. The dog will reassess too. Shoot for the body, not the head. There is no need to kill or even seriously injure the animal on the first shot.
There are some fairly tame looking 44spl rounds list here.
A little light reading to get you started...
http://www.ballistics101.com/44_special.php
Here is a video of a good looking non-over penetrator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-48mDPNHBlQ
A little light reading to get you started...
http://www.ballistics101.com/44_special.php
Here is a video of a good looking non-over penetrator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-48mDPNHBlQ
Would you give that advice to someone dealing with a human threat?
"Look what he did to my dog! He didn't even have to kill it, he is just
a dog hater! I'll see you in court buddy!"
Bad, bad advice there RealGun...
RealGun
Member
Dogs are not people on drugs. If you know dogs as well as I do, we can talk.
Here is why I think shooting the dog with snake shot is a bad idea
The dog is acting in a manner that brings a reasonable person to believe force is necessary to stop the dog.
The first round of shake shot drives the dog away and he goes home.
Dog now has many tiny shot inside of him.
Maybe the owner does not notice, or does not understand what is wrong, or
is too cheap to take him to the vet. Dogs owner finishes the job
or leaves the dog to die a poor death.
Maybe the owner figures out what happened, takes dog to vet, cops
come talk to you about why you put snake shot into the dog.
What, exactly, do you know about dogs that makes any difference
in the above scenario?
If you know dogs well enough to keep things from going to a defensive
shooting, great!
Once it comes to using a gun to stop the dog I think snake shot is not
the cartridge to use.
Outlaw Man
Member
If you're in the city, I'd take a very close look at the ordinances about discharging firearms in the city limits and the exceptions for it. In some locations, this may not be as clear a case of self defense as all of us here would think. Some cities have some weird laws on the books.
Shooting a dog to protect your cat may get you a nice fine.
Bear spray is safer from a legal standpoint but your cat may not appreciate the collateral damage.
Shooting a dog to protect your cat may get you a nice fine.
Bear spray is safer from a legal standpoint but your cat may not appreciate the collateral damage.
Long ago I was an armorer in an Infantry company in Berlin. In the arms room were 6 Stevens short barrel pump 12 gage shotguns which I thought were for riot control. Checking records back to WWII I found they were for stopping war dogs who were pulling down civilians. Regular jeep patrols for dogs included sniper in rear, driver with M1 carbine and officer with 12 gage. Records stated that there were too many injuries to personnel armed with 1911 pistols.
As the east germans had a solid ring of dogs on slipwires behind the wall we were trained almost every week in how to kill dogs. Over 60' M14, over 20' 12 gage, under 20' club them or if they came off the ground side step grab or shove them and stomp them before they could get up. Unlike cats a dog in the air will not land on it's feet if balance is disturbed.
If it was me, I would have a short barrel 12 gage in the house, a concealed 38 J frame + a walking stick heavy enough to kill a dog when I was outside. Cold Steel alone has 5 walking sticks listed capable of doing this. Develop a limp or sore knee, stick is for the dog, J frame is useful if the owner turns idiot before animal control gets there. Lastly if someone says it was their dog that attacked you, always, always, press charges immediately.
blindhari
SGT Berlin
As the east germans had a solid ring of dogs on slipwires behind the wall we were trained almost every week in how to kill dogs. Over 60' M14, over 20' 12 gage, under 20' club them or if they came off the ground side step grab or shove them and stomp them before they could get up. Unlike cats a dog in the air will not land on it's feet if balance is disturbed.
If it was me, I would have a short barrel 12 gage in the house, a concealed 38 J frame + a walking stick heavy enough to kill a dog when I was outside. Cold Steel alone has 5 walking sticks listed capable of doing this. Develop a limp or sore knee, stick is for the dog, J frame is useful if the owner turns idiot before animal control gets there. Lastly if someone says it was their dog that attacked you, always, always, press charges immediately.
blindhari
SGT Berlin
mgkdrgn
Member
I can hear the snickering already .... but this is where I like the Judge.
Multiple projectiles per shot (more/better chance of a hit) with a limited effective range.
And btw I'm not talking "snake shot", I'm talking buckshot.
Multiple projectiles per shot (more/better chance of a hit) with a limited effective range.
And btw I'm not talking "snake shot", I'm talking buckshot.
barnetmill
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Depends of course on the wound, but in farming country vets when xraying for other reasons often find a load of birdshot in a dog's rear that has healed without apparent problems.
At very close range a shot cartridge will make an obvious wound, maybe even a shallow hole from the shot and wad not being spreadout. Still less lethal than a bullet and the owner will notice it. At a distance the wound will not be so obvious, if it does not get infected the dog will likely survive.
HB
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Shooting a dog for just about any reason in an urban setting is a bad idea. I can't see how it would be any different than firing at a human for self defense... a reasonable person must feel that their life is in danger. Shooting a big dog that as running at you will likely result in a civil suit and some sort of discharging a weapon recklessly/in city limits charge, not to mention the potential of animal cruelty charges.
Good luck, but I'd stick to carrying a walking stick.
HB
Good luck, but I'd stick to carrying a walking stick.
HB
Comrade Mike
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Nah, just lay your pocket knife next to the dog.
Cosmoline
Member
In the incidents I've had on the bike or walking, it struck me that a handgun would be a poor choice. If you shoot preemptively as cops sometimes do, you risk serious legal problems because you're not a cop. If you wait till you get bit, you'll be shooting down at a fast moving target towards your own limbs! The potential for blowing your own foot off is high.
Spray is another option, though I've opted for a baton and so far that's worked good. It serves as a barrier between teeth and flesh. and gives you something to thwap a nose. Of course a trained guard dog can disarm you, but very few of those chase off after bikes.
Spray is another option, though I've opted for a baton and so far that's worked good. It serves as a barrier between teeth and flesh. and gives you something to thwap a nose. Of course a trained guard dog can disarm you, but very few of those chase off after bikes.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Not unless they've been trained hard and fed steroids to bulk'em up.
You may be thinking of the Amstaff. APBTs don't get that big without a lot of help.
But shooting at the dog and missing...and hitting Granny Smith two blocks away could cause some problems.
And there's always the disgruntled owner who would take exception to you shooting his dog, regardless of what the dog is doing. People who let their dogs run loose aren't generally known for good judgement and/or common sense and/or self-control...and they'll visit you while you sleep. If you have dogs, you can probably count on them being poisoned.
I know a few people like that.
Pepper spray. Long pointy sticks. Things like that go a long way toward keeping things from escalating far beyond the problem of an aggressive dog. Most of them are just trying to intimidate and get you to leave their territory anyway. They don't want to fight. They'd rather run a good bluff.
If all else fails, and the dog is serious about pressing the attack...shoot him. You can worry about the repercussions later. A 40 pound dog on full red is perfectly capable of ruining an arm or leg...or worse.
Thankfully, there are very, very few that go into full attack mode.
grubbylabs
Member
Bear spray is the way to go, and if you really think it necessary, a 22 for back up. Its just a dog, they are not bullet proof. And yes I grew up around pit bulls so I have a little experience with them, they really are neat dogs who get a bad wrap.
But all the same a dog is just that a dog, not really worth another person, but the reality of it is that you discharging a fire arm in a populated area could wind up taking a life. choose wisely and think about the aftermath and possible consequences.
But all the same a dog is just that a dog, not really worth another person, but the reality of it is that you discharging a fire arm in a populated area could wind up taking a life. choose wisely and think about the aftermath and possible consequences.
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