Defense choice - .223 or 40/45 cal

[GoRon]

I have an AR-15 w/ an Eotech...and found myself wondering if I would want to grab that if I ever needed to defend the family.
I was getting ready to buy a Dan Wesson Pointman Seven in 10mm, but am going to use that as more of a "target" gun. And, wondered if I should buy something more "handy"...like a XD, M&P, etc. in caliber such as 45, instead?

Like others have pointed out, training and mindset are most important.

Having said that I would get a pistol that can be used for self defense. Then you can take some training with it to start learning about mindset and tactics. These lessons can be carried over to use of the rifle then.

 

[Eyesac]

+1 AR and a pistol.

I think if used properly, either would get the job done, but why limit your options.

 

[Ryder]

With twice the velocity it's hard to beat a rifle.. A backup pistol is still a good idea. They are more handy and could be quicker to get into play.

As for 10mm/40sw/45acp. Any of those could get the job done. Especially that 10mm Personally I choose the 45acp even though I have magnums. I've fired a 45acp indoors without hearing protection it wasn't that bad. Ears didn't ring at all (Remington GS).

How much would the 10mm or 40sw hurt in such a situation? Hope I never have to find out I don't own either but at the range someone a couple lanes over can make me jump real good touching one of those off even though I wear double hearing protection.

 

[shooter503]

If you were to have your choice of defending yourself with an AR-15 (.223) or a 40 or 45 in a handgun similar to a Glock, XD, M&P, etc...which would you choose?
Which round would be more effective?

You give a choice of caliber for the handgun but not the carbine. When you open up with that 223 there's going to be a lot of lead going to a lot of unintended destinations. You could think 40 or 45 carbine (or even 9mm). You get equally effective medium range stopping, nearly the same number of rounds and much less chance of collateral damage. You could even share ammo. between pistol and carbine.

If I was worried about a rural home invasion perhaps 223. Close in a pistol caliber.

 

[lee n. field]

If you were to have your choice of defending yourself with an AR-15 (.223) or a 40 or 45 in a handgun similar to a Glock, XD, M&P, etc...which would you choose?

What scenario to you foresee?

I'm going for both.

 

[Huddog]

Well as Jeff points out mindset is most important but in my opinion it depends on what you are doing. In my home in a fortified position, knowing that my family was safely behind me and that I was not going searching, the AR. If I hear a bump in the night and have to go look a .45 and a streamlight. Too many other things to do while searching to have both hands on the AR. Now as a former LEO, first man with handgun and shield second with SMG w/ mounted light.

 

[tepin]

long gun will beat handgun most of the time. for the bedroom a 12ga sounds good and an AR15 good too but watch the walls.

 

[gezzer]

A hand gun is used to get you to a rifle IMHO I'll take the rifle every time close quarters or not.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Self Defense TV

On Self Defense TV, hosted by Tom Gresham (Hi, Tom!), they've shown some techniques for "house clearing" using a longarm.

After watching some of this, I believe that with proper training and practice, a longarm is the better tool, even in close quarters.

('Course, nothing sez you can't bring along a friend for yer rifle.)

You have better control and more firepower. Add to this the fragmentation of high-velocity rounds passing through walls, and you have an improved safety profile.

Did I mention training and practice?

 

[tinygnat219]

This implies rifle vs pistol. Rifle wins everytime.

 

[MudPuppy]

Which round would be more effective?

Looking at the original post, I notice we've answered a lot of questions, but not necessarily the one asked.

Without doing the math, my money is on the .223 over a 40/45.



However, to answer another question that wasn't asked, it'll likely be a different experience dealing with the police after shooting an intruder with a 45 pistol as opposed to having an ar-15 in your mitts. (down on my priority list, but i'm feeling fiesty tonight)

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Which ROUND?

Depends on how many walls you're trying to shoot through.

If you have to shoot through multiple walls to get your bad guy, then used the .40 or .45 pistola.

If you have clear view of the bad guy and would rather keep the number of walls punched down to a minimum, then you want a round that fragments faster and stops earlier, that being the .223 ammo.

Still leaning to the rifle.

 

[tnieto2004]

.223 long range

 

[CZ223]

What Jeff White said

Basically what it boils down too is which weapon you are most proficient with. You allready have a fine tool for the job as long as you are well trained and practiced with it. I would add a weapon mounted flashlight too it as you will need both hands on the weapon. In my case I am much more proficient with any of my handguns than I am with either of my ARs so I choose to keep my Glock 23 or 32 next to the bed along with a very bright flashlight. I have recently purchased a Mossberg 590 that now resides in the closet next to my bed.

While I agree with the majority opinion, that the rifle is usually the better choice, I do not agree that it is always the better choice. This debate has been going on in gun mags for as long as I have been reading them and now continues on sites like this. We will not resolve it here. Inside the house I think it is pretty much a draw. What the handgun lacks in firepower it makes up in ease of of operation etc. If however I have my family all together in one room, in a defensive position, then the AR with a 30 round clip would be a real comfort. The other real comfort would be my 15 year old daughter with the 590 in her hands. She has been shooting a 12 since she was 9 years old and is real good with it now. Outside the confines of four walls I will take the AR everytime, unless something belt fed is available to me.

One thing that has barely been touched upon so far is choice of ammo in the 223. If you use FMJ in it it will overpenatrate and go right through walls. My choice is to use something frangible like a Varmint round. If it is available to you, you may want to try some Hornady TAP ammo. TAP stands for Tactical and Police. One of my local dealers has had it on his shelves so I do not think that it is for law enforcement only. I had a chance to shoot some of it with some of the local LEOs at the range. It is extremely accurate and it is loaded with Hornady's V-max bullet. Good stuff. If it is not available I would look at other varmint rounds, my preferance being for something with a ballistic tip.

 

[CZ223]

Hornady TAP ammo

is available through Midway. Midway lists it as personal defense ammo. Try it you will like it.

 

[Beta76]

Personally, I mostly rely on a handgun for HD. My biggest concern is home invasion, and I want to have something close all the time, if not on me. I keep a Glock 19/M-3 next to me when I am in the living room watching TV, and on the bedstand when I am in bed. If the front door gets unexpectedly kicked in, I have something to grab. It is not nearly the weapon my AR-15 is in terms of ending a fight right then and there, but its beauty lies in the fact that it will probably be there when I need it. Also, I don't like going to the front door and answering it unless I am armed, and the AR-15 is too big to conceal behind my back.
Having said that, the AR-15 will be used to handle everything else. The single biggest downside to it is that it will take a few seconds to get to it. I don't care if it is right next to the bed, I can still grab a pistol one-handed and shoot a BG off my bed (one of my students did just that), and I can't do that with a rifle. I like rifles, I have taken many defensive rifle courses, and I am a SWAT-certified team leader on a metropolitan Special Response Group who has made a number of dynamic entries armed with an LMT AR-15. It bothers me not to clear a house with an AR-15. Regardless, the handgun and rifle are different tools used for different applications. Granted, there is some overlap between the two, but each is at its best for certain tasks.

 

[hceptj]

To answer the question first, I'd go with the handgun in .45acp. Any of the Glock's, XD's, Taurus .45's will get you 10+ rounds. If you need more than 10+ rounds, you need the police, not more ammo, because your in a serious situation.

I own a Bushmaster A3 and love it. However, its not my primary self-defense weapon. That falls either to the pump 12 gauge if I'm upstairs (kept locked in a closet vault in my office) or one of the handguns in the multivault beside the bed downstairs.

My .02 cents since your question also seemed to be open to buying something else is to look for a .45acp or .40 if you prefer. Also I'd suggest picking up one of the many tactical type shotguns. A .45 or .40 in the waist and a 12 gauge in the hands would be a hard combination to top.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I have an AR-15 w/ an Eotech...and found myself wondering if I would want to grab that if I ever needed to defend the family.

From this post: http://geekwitha45.blogspot.com/2006_02_12_geekwitha45_archive.html#113980474853691382

Some months back, when some fairly...deliberate...shooting sounded not too far from my house and awoke the dogs in the middle of the night, I found myself shrugging into my armor, and grabbing the nearest-to-hand long gun, which was a pump shottie.

I never found out what the deal was, nothing was written up in the police blotter.

It was, however, an instructive moment. The thoughts you have under pressure, when you're reaching for your arms in the dead of the night, with the distinct possibility that you might need them tells you something.

What that moment told me was that I most definately did NOT want the shottie in my hands. I'm not a shotgunnist, and while I accept all the Really Good Reasons why a shottie is the preferred arm for home defense, it just didn't sing true to me. To me, a shotgun is a compromise armament, an alien device I've taught myself to use, but never really felt any zen moments with.

What I really wanted in my hands was my AR.

 

[KINGMAX]

45 acp

GLOCK 21 .45 acp in personal protection silver tip hollow point rounds. Do not pull the trigger unless you want it dead. It will bleed out before the ambulance arrives.

 

[KINGMAX]

What can you hit at 18 - 22 feet with.

Most gun fights w/ pistols are usually between 18 - 22 feet apart. What do you have that works the best for you at that distance? My personal choice is somthing in a .45 acp.,,, Blue steel or Stainless steel, it's your choice jomho = (just one mans humble opinion)

 

[Jeff White]

Kingmax said;

GLOCK 21 .45 acp in personal protection silver tip hollow point rounds. Do not pull the trigger unless you want it dead. It will bleed out before the ambulance arrives.

There really are literally volumes of data that proves conclusively that there are no magic bullets in any caliber......

Kingmax,
For pennance you need to type There are no magic bullets. 500 times and then shoot 500 rounds of 9mm out of the pistol of your choice.

The truth is that with modern expanding ammunition, you can accomplish anything you can reasonably expect to accomplish with a dead reliable handgun in any caliber .38 special and above.

And until you can handle that totally reliable weapon like you carried it from the womb in your hands, any money and time you spend on searching for that elusive magic bullet is just going to be wasted.

Jeff

 

[jeepmor]

Let's look at the math

.223 ~1000 ftlbs
.45 maxes out about 500 ft lbs w/ double tap or similar
.40 maxes out in the 400 ft lb range.

Purely from this perspective, the .223 is the obvious choice.

And where's the quote "Your sidearm is for fighting your way to your rifle".

Like my niece in the army stated about her sidearm "If I'm using my sidearm, I'm already fu**ed!!!"

Obviously not the same scenario as home defense, but there is some truth to the statement.

I think it would be easier to clear my house with a pistol, but I can hit clays at 50 ft on a gravel wall all day with my AR. Usually something like 25 of a 30 round clip are hits, offhand. Granted, it's 50 feet. But many more clays survive when I start throwing my .45 slugs their direction out of my 3" barreled .45, and it takes me longer to get a solid bead on them too. I can toss the AR to shoulder and be squeezing off a shot much quicker. And I get the "buttstroke" option too.

Both are near the nightstand. If I have to go outside and investigate, I'd probably take the AR. And I'd always send the dog out first. A couple would be BGs have changed their mind when my dog decided it was "go time". And they never returned.....good dog, here's a big juicy steak for you!!!

 

[halfacop]

And where's the quote "Your sidearm is for fighting your way to your rifle".

Gezzer posted it a ways back..........

A hand gun is used to get you to a rifle IMHO I'll take the rifle every time close quarters or not.

And I agree - rifle first.

 

[benEzra]

For me, the AR, hands down.

You give a choice of caliber for the handgun but not the carbine. When you open up with that 223 there's going to be a lot of lead going to a lot of unintended destinations. You could think 40 or 45 carbine (or even 9mm). You get equally effective medium range stopping, nearly the same number of rounds and much less chance of collateral damage. You could even share ammo. between pistol and carbine.

How so?

A 230gr .45 ACP won't penetrate less in wallboard (or in gelatin, for that matter) than a 55gr .223 JHP. If anything, I'd think the heavy, non-fragile .45 round would penetrate more. Remember, with .223, you are NOT limited to FMJ, any more than you are with .45 ACP.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Get an under-rail mount for the AR so you put the pistol under the longgun and use both at the same time.