Did i just get taken?

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LeibstandarteAdH

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Gunshow, columbia sc, 2pm today i see a rasheed, 2 hakims and one Vz52 carbine all on the same table. Needless to say i headed for that table.
The hakims were $550 and $650 and were in very good shape both came with german 20 round mags with the orriginals. The rasheed was $750 and was spotless. As i was drooling over those (i had $375 to my name for the whole show) i saw a Vz 52, having never seen one before i picked it up. It was marked $350 and i knew i had come across them listed on gunbroker for about that before. Anyway, i bought it.

The guy let it go for $300 and threw in 75 rounds of orriginal Czech 7.62x45 ammo. Something just made me buy it. I then picked up all the norinco 9x19 brass/boxer primed for $7 a box and norinco 7.62x39 (how do they apply laquer that damn good to those things?!) that the guy had. He was a private seller and seemed like a real good guy and all.

To spare you anymore useless details, when i got home to test out my new toy, i go to function test/shoot it and pull the string 'click' nothing happens, recock, click, same thing. The primers were un-touched. I realize the damn thing is missing the firing pin, firing pin spring and little retaining pen. Also upon further inspection the bore is shot the **** out. I put a .308 up to the muzzle and it drops freely to the case neck. I tried a 7.62x45 and it does the same i can put it all the way in and spin it around with ease. But i can still see rifling, it LOOKS like there is some rifleing there to still grab the projectile.

Anyway, my question is, did i just get taken? They guy will be there tomorrow, i dont know what i should do, as i have wanted one of these for a LONG LONG time. Does anyone have parts? how much would it cost for the firing pin? Just haw bad can the barell be? Is it repairable or should i just take it back to the guy tomorrow morning and trade it for an SKS and a bunch of ammo? the rest of the action and gun are in pretty good shape. Thanks for any info. -Matt
 
I don't know about the Vz 58, but the CZ 82 has polygonal rifling which looks very shallow.

If the seller seems like a decent fellow as you describe him, take the gun back, calmly explain the situation, and see what he can do work it out for you.
 
This isnt polygonal. Its just pitted/worn clean out. Im wondering if i get the firing pin and all in, just how bad this kind of barell will shoot. I mean if i can get pie plate accuracy at 50 yards thats as good as i would ever care. I just bought this as a curio not a shooter. The thing is, i dont really want to take it back, i want it. That does not mean that i dont want it to FUNCTION though...
 
IMO, No, you weren't taken. If you didn't take the time to ask the man about the condition of the rifle, or failed to check it out yourself, then that's not his fault.

If you left out a part where he claimed it was 100% functional and correct, then sure, he's a little shady. However, it's still up to you to inspect the goods to make sure that they're up to your expectations before plunking the money down.
 
I did spend a good bit of time looking at it, but most of it was thinking about if i could afford it, not the condition, as outwardly it looked and cycled fine. There was no way for me to tell it was missing bolt/carrier parts without striping it down, and at the time i had never even layed my hands on one before and didnt try it. The guy did tell me that he had not tried to fire it. The only thing that i feel bad about is me not taking a 7.62x39 out of my pocket and trying to stick it into the muzzle. Other than that, i dont see how i could have known the rest without being told.

And i seriously doubt that the guy is just going to say "oh ok, heres all your money back sir, and thanks for telling me its missing parts and dosent work now, its worth at least what you paid for it to me now..." And If he does not, heh, what am i going to do? shoot him with the gun with no firing pin that he sold me?:neener:


But im pretty sure he'll let me trade what i payed for stuff he has. Which is a lot. I would probibly get an SKS and a bunch of ammo. But my question is, because i really want this (or one of theese) guns, is it worth close to what i paid if i replaced the firing pin and it was in working order but with its shot out barell?
 
I understand all that, and agree with you. When I said that you weren't taken, I didn't mean that in a bad way. I simply meant that as far as you've described, the guy was as forthcoming as he could be with you - making it an unfortunate discovery, rather than a deliberate attempt to rip you off.

As far as what it's worth if you were to replace the missing parts, I'm afraid I have no earthly idea about that.
 
Sounds like you need, and want, to live with your decision. Make it a long term project. Get the firing pin replaced and see if it will fire at all. Then save your milk money for a bbl.
I've done this with a couple of antique Parker sxs. I'ts kinda fun going through the steps, gives ya' something to look forward to.
I think that it being cosmeticly sound it's worth the effort.
 
Did i just get taken?
Click to expand...
It doesn't sound like the seller misrepresented the rifle, the buyer just failed to do an adequate inspection of it. By the way, 7.62mm is just an approximation - NATO 7.62 is .308", Combloc 7.62x39 is .311".
 
www.e-gunparts.com

They have what you need for a total of about $25; firing pin, spring, and retaining pin.
As to the barrel, good luck finding one in good condition. A gunsmith who's a good machinist could make one from a blank without too much trouble, but it would be expensive. The barrel on mine is quite dark and pitted, but the rifling is still good and it shoots pretty good; at least as good as the average SKS. On the other hand, if a 7.62x45 bullet slips right in the muzzle and spins freely; that's really bad. I have never actually seen one that bad. No telling how it would shoot. Can you shine a light in the muzzle and see if it's totally worn, or if perhaps someone counterbored it?

If you are going back to the show anyhow, it wouldn't hurt to tell him about it and see if he would be willing to give you a little back (or ammo or something) to make up for the missing parts. The worst he could say is no. If he's an honest guy he might not have known.
As to the bore condition, not much you can say about that. That's something that is pretty important to check before you buy.

Numrich also has the x45 to x39 chamber adaptor, but I've never heard anything good about those things.

Other than that, they are neat little rifles; well made and fun to shoot.
 
Buyer beware! Take it back. He is shady for asking $350 for a gun in that condition. I am a dealer and I would not have many customers doing deals like that. A good reputation means more money in the long run. Anyway you try to spin it, it was still wrong.




GC
 
I've been in the same situation at gun shows... see a gun I'm interested in selling cheap, throw the cash at the seller, and get it home to find out it's missing parts... or the bore is shot... or it's a worked over "rust bucket".

I always consider these situations totally my fault and take full responsibility. I had a chance to inspect the firearms before shelling out the cash, so there's nobody to blame other than myself. Anymore I don't buy guns at shows... especially from private sellers. I only buy from dealers that I trust.

You can go back and ask the seller what he might be willing to do, but I certainly wouldn't expect or demand a refund. At worst, buy the firing pin parts from Numrich and the barrel may end up shooting fine regardless how you think it looks.
 
It's a shame this happened to you bud but i have to say it was partially your own fault for not properly inspecting the rifle before you bought it. Unless the seller would not let you take a look then unfortuantley you may be out of luck.
 
Pencil test for function.

I always test to see if the firearm will shoot a wooden pencil or Bic pen out of the barrel. That means the firing pin is working. Plus lots of borelight work and examination. You almost always can go find an unloaded bullet to check the bore at the muzzle.
 
Hakims

I am stunned by the prices of the Hakims! I admit it has been years (at least 15) since I priced an Egyptian Hakim in 8mm Mauser caliber. At that time a hakim in excellent condition brought only $75 to $100 and NOBODY wanted them! What happened?
 
He is shady for asking $350 for a gun in that condition. I am a dealer and I would not have many customers doing deals like that. A good reputation means more money in the long run. Anyway you try to spin it, it was still wrong.
Click to expand...

Max - if you'd actually read the post and following comments, you'd know that not only was the seller a private individual and not a dealer, but he admitted that he hadn't tried to fire it. Which also usually means that he hasn't broken it down for inspection either. Asking a certain price for a gun is fair - it is up to the buyer to ascertain whether or not the condition is worth the price. The OP makes no mention whatsoever of the seller making any statements about the functionality of the gun, so how was he shady again?
 
Yeah, i guess i was a little too wrapped up in the situation. I have decided that in light of the facts that i can have it up and 'running' for less than $40, and i found a used "good condition" barrel for $50, that im just going to keep it. Ive always wanted one of these, but if the drive wasnt almost 2 hours, and the admission almost 10 dollars, id at least go back and try to get something like another 50 round bag of ammo out of the deal. Ill end up trying handloads with 'as oversized as i can find' projectiles as there IS rifiling still in there. Just very little. How hard would to be to install that 'new to me' barrel if i ended up getting it?

EDIT:

Before you get too upset, read this post above.

Quote:
By the way, 7.62mm is just an approximation - NATO 7.62 is .308", Combloc 7.62x39 is .311".
Click to expand...

All i can say to that is, i did try a .308 first, but then opened the bag of the Czech 7.62x45 and it felt just as loose. Im guessing that the orriginal stuff from the Czechs made for the gun is .311 as well. As i said, im prolly going to end up tring to find some .312's for 7.7 jap or .303 brit.

Also, yes it is true that he did not claim that it either worked or did not. When i asked him about the gas system, he had no idea how it worked. That was kind of a give away. But i really should have at least done the bullet test on the muzzle, as that would have maybe allowed me to bargain even lower. He also told me that if i wasnt 'happy with it' that i cold bring it back, but he didnt say anything about returning my cash in full.

The bottom line is i should have checked the damn barell, And im going to try and keep this gun and make it work out. I will take a hit on a firing pin that i had no way of finding out if was gone or not (the action cover had the required zip tie keeping it from being able to be stripped, not to mention me nor the seller knew how to even try to.
 
Ok, i just tried an Albanian 7.62x54r, it will go all the way into the muzzle, but i cannot spin it. i just mic'ed it and its .312 on the nose. Anyone know of any FMJ JSP or JHP's in .312? .311's are just too small i can spin all of my 7.62x39's that are .310-.311
 
Just because a bullet spins in the muzzle doesn't mean that the bore is that diameter all the way down. Muzzle wear is caused by improper cleaning; steel rod wearing against the muzzle. I would definitely see how it shoots before worrying too much about the barrel.
Also, installing another barrel could be expensive. It will require a barrel vise, action wrench for that receiver, and maybe a chamber reamer. Sometimes you are lucky and the headspace is good, but either way it's not a do-it-yourself project without the proper tools and know-how. A gunsmith could do it, but that wouldn't be cheap either.

My guess is that once you get the firing pin (Numrich is good to buy from, they ship fast and are pretty reasonable for the most part), you might be quite satisfied with the accuracy. If pie-plate-accuracy at fifty yards is good enough, that old rifle just might surprise you.
 
Is it possible that the barrel was couter-bored? This was done on some milsurp rifles.
 
I can't believe you bought a gun FTF and didn't check the bore. That is really the most basic thing any potential buyer should do.

The missing parts would have been more difficult to determine and most of us would have missed that.

As soon as someone offers a gun (especially at a gun show where prices are rarely too good and especially on the "first day" of the show) that is significantly below market value, your radar should go up. VZ58s go for significantly more than $300.
 
kingpin008 I missed the fact that he was a private "Dealer" but it doesn't change my opinion. You are probably a nice guy but a little misguided on the right and the wrong way to do business. If you believe that there was nothing wrong with the sale, I ask you, would you go to that seller for your next gun purchase?

For me he would be at the bottom of a long list of people to do business with.


Buyer Beware is how the law goes but it doesn't mean it is always right.

Let's all wait and see how the seller handles things today when the buyer takes the gun back. That will say a lot about the seller and his intentions.



GC
 
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VZ58s go for significantly more than $300.
Click to expand...
The rifle in question is actually a VZ52, according to his original post, in 7.62x45mm. Quite different from a VZ58. I paid half that for mine, but that was five or six years ago. I believe that $300 is about ballpark for one now. Dark, pitted bores are very, very common on these considering where and how they were used.

LeibstandarteAdH, if you decide to keep it and buy a firing pin; please post a range report. I'm curious.
 
Ah, what a day. I woke up and went to the show this morning at like 8, they wouldent let me in till 9. Things have turned out quite good, i was telling myself how stupid i was for getting into this kind of situation all damn night. Anway, as soon as the guy saw me holding the gun walking up to his table, he asked me what was wrong, all i said was, its missing bolt parts, it does not function. He exclaimed and said that he should have checked it out before advising me that was in working order (all he ever really said is that it "works but ive never shot it and dont know how to strip them" so i didnt take that as very much. Anyway, as soon as i got that out of my mouth he started recalling how much i payed him for it and saying he would count it out and to hold on a second. I stopped him mid sentence and said to him that i would like to look around his table and see if he had anything else i might want. As the day before i had saw that vz 52 on my way out and hadent really looked because of the big "all sales are private, SCDL required" written in sharpie on a folded piece of paper on his table. He ended up having some really wacky stuff, a rasheed marked 750, 2 hakims both orriginal one with no magazine, the one without the mag was marked 589, the one with the mag was marked 659, bayonet on both. a lot of sks's some yugos and norincos, some bubba'd and some not. all in the high 100's i was about to get 2 sks's and some ammo, but i had a Cz-52 pistol out in my truck glove box. I told him i had kind of wanted a hakim and he told me to go out and get the pistol and he'd look at it.

He ended up taking a quick look at the pistol (a lot quicker than i looked at the Vz 52 carbine) and handed me the hakim without the magazine across the table, asked me if i had ammo for it and gave me 2 boxes of steel cased german stuff that i think is repro, its marked 1944. But anyway, i actually DID check out this hakim before saying i wanted it, and it had a very nice bore with strong even shiney rifling, and the action wasnt missing any parts and did function. So i took it. he then also gave me the reason that it had no mag, a mangled MG-13 mag that had feed lips bent to all hell. I was playing with it and got it to feed 4 shots in a row this afternoon, but needless to say im in the market for an orriginal 10 round hakim mag.

In the end im glad i didnt ask for the $40 it would have taken to replace the parts on the Vz 52, as that barell really really bothered me just because it was sooo loose on the muzzle. I now have a hakim that has not been bubba'd all but the magazine, as the stock and bands and everything are all in good orriginal order. He also gave me a little platic tool that i promptly broke trying to turn the gas setting down, as the brass flys quite a ways and the acton seemed a little too violent.

I cant think of much else to add, i think that i got a (fairly?) good deal and a gun that i would have otherwise never saved enough money for nor seeked out. As it was either this, a beat up FAL, 2 sks's, or me coughing up $50 more to take the rasheed, which i dont really think is woth that much. At least not to me. -Matt
 
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