did teddy roosevelt use black powder cartridges

[andrewstorm]

Does anyone know if the famous charge at san juan hill if the raiders were using cordite,or black powder or smokeless in their colt 1896 DA revolvers,I believe they used black powder in their krag rifles, I just bought a little gem, 4 in bbl 1896 colt DA .41 LC cal in very good condition ,and was wondering if anyone was up on this history.

 

[junkman_01]

I don't know about the revolvers, but the Krags used smokeless powder. The .30 US Govt. cartridge has the distinction of being the USA's first smokeless cartridge in 1892. .The designation .30-40 Krag is a commercial designation used to let sportsman know what the equivalent power was since they were used to black powder cartridges. The .30-30 Winchester was the first US commercial smokeless powder cartridge in 1895, but it's official name is .30 WCF (.30 Winchester Center Fire). BTW, only the 'regular' army was armed with Krags. The 'volunteers' (as were the Rough Riders) used Trapdoor Springfield's which were black powder cartridges.

 

[Tommygunn]

The revolvers would have been loaded with BP.
Teddy Roosevelt did his own reloading with rifle cartridges, and was an early user of what was called "double dense" or "smokeless powder."
At San Juan Hill the arms and ammo would be U.S. military stock -- atleast the ammunition would be. One problem was that the enemy were using modern ammo and powder and the wounds they inflicted were worse than what the BP guns could accomplish.

 

[andrewstorm]

the bp cartridges

Ive read that bp cartridges,were less than efficient in 38 LC and some officers opted for the 41 cal colt in the civilian model,for better stopping power,i wonder if my gun could of been there at san juan hill? im gonnna try to get a history from colt if i can, anyone have ballistics for the original loadings of 1890,s US military cartridges ? both 38 lc and 41lc i allready know about the 45 lc

 

[Cosmoline]

Both black and smokeless were in play in that war. It came right at a transition point, so you had everything from Trapdoors to Mausers. The Krags were of course smokeless but were not as high octane as the 7x57 Mausers. I've read that the Mausers were notable for being the first military arms to fire a projectile with impact velocities high enough (2,200 fps IIRC) to create an explosive effect on flesh. They certainly impressed our troops, and the Krag's lifespan was limited. Attempts to increase the velocity of the Krag round risked breaking the rifle's ONLY locking lug! Within a few years we had adopted our own Mauser, only we called it a Springfield 1903. A few years after that the Germans invented the modern spitzer round, and we copied that one as well to create the .30'06.

 

[andrewstorm]

so those 7x57 rifles were made for smokeless?

1896 mausers, are they pre1899 and antique was the powder cordite or semi smokeless?

 

[junkman_01]

The Spaniards used M1893 Mausers and the 7mm Mauser was always a smokeless powder round.

Note that the Spaniards were still using the '93's in their 1936 Civil War in the attached page from my copy of Ludwig Olsen's "Mauser Rifles".....

 

[Dave Markowitz]

7x57mm was always a smokeless powder round, as was .30-40 Krag. The first cartridge loaded with smokeless was the French 8x50mmR Lebel, adopted in 1886. Likewise, the German 7.9x57mm (1888) was also loaded with smokeless from the start. In contrast, the .303 British was first loaded with a compressed charge of black powder but this was replaced with smokeless within a few years.

American cartridges were never loaded with Cordite. Cordite is a specific type of smokeless propellent mainly used by the British Commonwealth. It is not a powder. Rather, it looks like uncooked spaghetti (i.e., it looks like a cord):



(Picture from Wikipedia.)

When I got my first Lee-Enfield I bought some Pakistani surplus Mark VII .303. It was old and had been stored in poor conditions so I had several hangfires and a few duds. I pulled the bullet on one dud and extracted the Cordite. When lit on one end it burns like a fast burning fuse.

 

[andrewstorm]

thanx dave

allota good information,about the transition from blackpowder so what powder did we use in 1897?

 

[junkman_01]

If you mean The United States, it would be smokeless powder.

 

[Jim Watson]

Black, in the revolver, kind of like Tommygunn said.

The .41 Long Colt was never a USGI sidearm. Not to say it couldn't be that somebody might have taken his own, we were less picky about such things in those days, but the Army did not issue anything but .38 and .45.

 

[Cosmoline]

so what powder did we use in 1897

Both. US troops in the Spanish-American war had both modern smokeless rounds and older black powder rounds in a mix of rifles, handguns and even shotguns. Even the artillery was mixed smokeless and black. The Hotchkiss guns were still running black I believe. And one of our weapons even ran on COMPRESSED AIR which shot a wad of nitro into the enemy!

http://www.spanamwar.com/dynamite.htm

So it's safe to say this was a very experimental time in small arms history.

 

[artee]

A small correction to Post #2. The "Rough Riders" were US Volunteers. While many state units had the .45-70 rifle and blackpowder load, the Rough Riders were noted in many books as having the Krag Rifle. It helps to have an old and famous Col and a Lt Col who was an assistent Sec of the Navy.

 

[andrewstorm]

whats semi smokless?

and did we ever use this meaning the US

 

[Racebannon]

I think the Rough Riders, 1st Volunteer U.S. Cavalry were armed with Krag Carbines, even though they were on foot in Cuba.

 

[junkman_01]

I found this description of their equipment online......

Before training began, Lieutenant-Colonel Roosevelt used his political influence gained as Assistant Secretary of the Navy to ensure that 'his' volunteer cavalry regiment would be properly equipped to serve as any regular unit of the U.S. Army. For private soldiers and noncommissioned officers, this meant the M1892/98 Springfield (Krag) bolt action rifle in .30 Army (.30-40) caliber "They succeeded in getting their cartridges, revolvers, clothing, shelter-tents, and horse gear ... and in getting the regiment armed with the Krag-Jorgensen carbine used by the regular cavalry." Officers of the regiment each received a new lever-action M1895 Winchester rifle, also in .30 Army. A last minute gift from a wealthy donor were a pair of modern gas-operated M1895 Colt-Browning machine guns in 7mm Mauser caliber.

In contrast, the uniforms of the regiment were designed to set the unit apart. "The Rough Rider uniform was a slouch hat, blue flannel shirt, brown trousers, leggings, and boots, with handkerchiefs knotted loosely around their necks. They looked exactly as a body of cowboy cavalry should look." It was the 'rough and tumble' appearance and charisma that contributed to earning them the title of The Rough Riders.

 

[Jim Watson]

whats semi smokless?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and did we ever use this meaning the US

Semismokeless (The main brands being King's Semi Smokeless and Winchester Lesmok) was an intimate blend of black powder ingredients and nitrocellulose. It was well thought of in .22 lr because it shot cleaner than black and gave you some time to clean before the old chlorate primers could start rusting the barrel. It was not used in any military ammunition that I ever heard of. Or Gen Hatcher, either.

 

[andrewstorm]

thanx good info!

id still like to know about the actual sidearms,or loads, machine gun history was on yesterday on the history channel ,gotta love the history channel,well the page youguys linked me to showes a 38 colt at 785 fps mv that sounds like black powder velocity,hmmmm,

 

[kBob]

The .41 Colt was used in a host of Colt pistols. It used a 200 grain lead bullet at 730 fps according to Barnesin his Cartridges of the World. This is the same ballistics as the later smokeless .38 Special with that weight bullets.

The .38 Long Colt used a 150 grain bullet driven to 770 fps. by comparison the .38 SPecial when loaded with that bullet was factory loaded up to 1065 fps but normally the service load for US police was the 158 grain round nose lead at 855 fps.

FOr comparison the .38 S&W launched a slightly lighter 145 grain bullet at only 730 fps and as the SUper Police or British version of their .38 S&W service round a 200 grain bullet at a mere 630 fps

One has to wonder if the Brits paid any attention to the fact that the US had found a .38 caliber bullet producing 195 foot pounds of energy had been a failure before thay adopted a .38 caliber bullet producing only 176 foot pounds

The .41 Colt BTW produced 231 foot pounds of energya bit less than the .38 Special's standard loading that produced 256 fp.

Not hard to see why many folks liked the idea of a 230 grain .45 bullet at 855 fps producing405 footpounds, eh?

There were a lot of low power revolver cartridges in use by the worlds militaries in the last bit of the 1800's and early1900's

Yes shot placement is most important.....but given the same shot placement which diameter hole and what amount of energy would you want?

As to the rifles actually the .30-40 Krag and 7 mm Mauser as used by the Spanish were pretty close as to ballistics. The real advantage the Spanish had was stripper clip feeding. A US soldeir stops to reload and he has to insert either single rounds through his Krags magazine trap or if he was a good juggler roll in multiple rounds, some folks could even drop five rounds directly from their hand into the krag magazine.....when no one was shooting at them. EVERY Spanish soldier when he ran dry just stuck a stripper clip in the guides of his rifle and thumbed in five rounds, no muss no fuss. The Mauser magazine was a better design and allowed for a more stream lined rifle.

Compared to the single shot black powder loaded Springfield Trapdoors in .45-70 Black powder rounds......the 1893 Mausers must have looked like something from Jules Verne.

-kBob

 

[mykeal]

Yes shot placement is most important.....but given the same shot placement which diameter hole and what amount of energy would you want?

That's the whole point - given the PROPER shot placement, it doesn't matter.

 

[kBob]

mykeal

I had no intention of bring this boorah here, just pointing out that poor ignorant everyday troopers thought bigger and more powerful is better. We certainly sneared at those MPs and APs and their .38Specials and all them ferriners with their 9 silly meters back when I was issued a M1911A1. WHether we were correct or not does not change the fact that many FELT that way.

Let's drop this in this thread please.

-kBob

 

[andrewstorm]

k bob

Thanx,lots of good info,and goes to show why the 41 colt was made obsolete by smokeless design,as the 41colt DA round had a internally lubed bullet with a hollow base,and they changed bore sizes from .405 down to .386:banghead: odd ball cartridge for a colt, and that's why i like it,guess ill just fill the case with black powder,KAAAAAABBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM<>>>>>>