Did the Founding Fathers intend…

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gym said:
Gasoline?, we are talking about sophisticated complex systems here. Not muskets, you need 2 years or more of training just to operate half the stuff the military uses, how is the average citizen going to comepete with that. Surley you jest. just thank your lucky stars for what you do have, and stop wishing for a 60 million dollar tank that you couldn't drive anyway. There is no way an untrained bunch of weekend warriors can stand against a well trained well equipped military, And don't tell me stories about 20 years ago, if you can't get up and run 10 miles with a 60 lb pack on, you are not in shape for combat, your just a target. The average internet commando is about as fit as the guy who works at wendys.

My point is that you, I, or anyone else can obtain something that's potentially very dangerous with no training or background check at all. All you need is five gallons of gas and a flare and you can hurt a lot of people - probably as many as you could hurt with an RPG round. So from that point of view, I don't see why an RPG is any more dangerous than a can of gas or why it should be any more restricted.
Is your objection the training behind using said dangerous implement, or the ability to actually own it?
Still, we're talking about the intentions of the founders - not what makes us uncomfortable. People say and do things that I personally am not comfortable with every day - but they have rights the same as I do. I have to respect those rights whether I like it or not. But if you have some kind of evidence you can cite about how the Founders never intended for the general population to privately own various implements of war, please educate me.

And money is what it is. Very few people could afford to equip their own ship with a full complement of cannon (or even to own a ship at all) in 1780 but there were those who could. And there still are those who privately own and operate demilitarized armored vehicles and tanks, so it's clearly not impossible to learn. Once upon a time I could drive them (M-113's, AVLB's on M-60 series chassis, M-9 ACE) - I'm sure I could get the hang of it again.

millertyme said:
When the day comes that the US Soldier is commanded to take up arms against the citizens of this nation the "gun-grabbing liberals" will be the ones on the bullhorn.

You might be surprised. Check out some "leftist" message boards some time and you'll see that a great many folks on the left are just as fond of shooting holes in stuff as you are. I lean to the libertarian point of view myself, but I subscribe to their newsletters and some message boards to get an idea of what other people think. You'd be surprised what you learn sometimes from smart people who don't agree with you.
But anyhow, political affiliation doesn't always tell the whole story on gun ownership.
 
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There are two alternatives. An armed but untrained populous, or an unarmed and untrained populous. As unfit as they may be, the former are more troublesome than the latter, and the latter would be mere sheep. But there are other considerations, one being self defense in a time of anarchy and the other a means by which to obtain food for survival... or trade material. There is no valid argument against armed citizens.

What arms should we be limited to is a matter of practicality and common sense. Full automatics perhaps... tanks not so much. But we do have plenty of reservists and vets who know how to use tanks... and tanks can be got at your local national guard base (I got F16s two miles from me). No real need to have them parked in our garage.
 
Common sense according to whom?
The Founders had a lot of trouble deciding among themselves exactly what common sense was - take the debate between the Federalists and the Antifederalists for example (although Thomas Paine thought he had it figured out!).

My sole contention is this - there was nothing included in the Constitution that delegated the power to limit which arms civilians could be armed with to government. It was not mentioned.
The Founders were thinking men and all agreed that government needed to have certain powers to serve the public good, so they delegated those specific powers to government. Controlling the armaments available to civilians was not among those powers.

In theory, I agree with awgrizzly.
I can't afford a tank or an Apache, I don't have the time to put into learning to use it safely or maintaining it, and I likely couldn't even afford to fire a single round from an Abrahms if I wanted to. Additionally, although I disagree with the policies and qualifications of many of our elected officials at this point, I don't think they are sitting around hatching plots to oppress us or perpetrate crimes against humanity on us. So overall, I'm not at all concerned that I'll need my own RPG or GPMG in the near future.

But the question asked was not what seems reasonable or acceptable to me - the question was about the intentions of the Founding Fathers.
 
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You might be surprised. Check out some "leftist" message boards some time and you'll see that a great many folks on the left are just as fond of shooting holes in stuff as you are.

They may be liberals, but they're not the gun-grabbing type. I was only speaking of the latter.
 
I have to think if you want to put groups into a box and nail the lid down to keep them confined, the real dangerous ones now, are your tea party ones who fail to read the agenda of that party:eek:

As far as Milita goes, I would say anyone who has not served is not considered to be, "Milita"... Those who stand on the corner waving the flag, are nice (maybe) but they are not serving when called upon...:confused:

So if you have not passed that test you are not standing on real solid footing...:uhoh:

My thoughts anyway... It does get sticky and all the peanut gallery folks are not doing much for the cause, IMHO...

This guy should be ignored...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh

Draft dodger, did not enlist, nothing like a chicken hawk to throw your chickens to :what:
 
As far as the question of whether the ownership of certain types of weapons should be prohibited or restricted goes, I would say yes only if the mere uncontrolled ownership of the weapon in question constitutes a violation of the liberty of another individual.

This is because the only legitimate role of government/force is the protection of liberty. If a government does anything other than that, it is itself a threat to liberty, and people would be justified in defending themselves against it.

It is a tough enough question whether the mere possession of something can ever constitute a violation of someone's liberty. I think if such a thing does exist, it would have to be something that places other people in an incredible amount of risk. I think of it in terms of "risk rays:" We are always putting other people at risk, no matter what we do, even if the risk is incredibly slight. The more risky the activity we're engaged in is, the more "risk rays" we emit. The question is whether there is a point at which your behavior is so risky to others that it constitutes a threat to their liberty, and they have the right to restrain you through force.

And if you answer in the affirmative, it brings up the even trickier question of where that line is drawn.

One thing is for certain... it makes absolutely no sense to draw the line between small arms that fire one projectile per mechanical actuation, and those that fire multiple projectiles with one actuation. Especially when you make an exception for shotguns, which fire multiple projectiles at the same time with each actuation. I don't think the line can be drawn anywhere close to any type of small arms.

However, I believe that the uncontrolled ownership of nuclear weapons might very well constitute the violation of the liberty of those around you. The risk that this would place on other people would just be too high. Part of it is the chances of something happening, and part of it is the magnitude of the harm that would result if it did. I think extremely contagious diseases or highly toxic substances that can kill large numbers of people might fall into the same category. I think I might draw the line somewhere around here. Extremely large and powerful conventional explosives are where I start to get unsure. Guided missiles pose an interesting dillema, as well.

Of course, you also have to factor in the risk of having a government that is exclusively armed with certain types of weapons that individuals are not... assuming you allow your government to be armed with the things that are prohibited to individuals.

I think it is definitely an intolerable risk to have a government that so outmatches the ability of it's subjects to resist that it can easily subjugate them.
 
I know this is a long comment, but please bear with me guys. This is my next post on my blog at www.gatewaychaplaintom.wordpress.com. I’m posting it here first. Please point out any shortcomings in the thoughts I have expressed below. I respect and trust your opinions.

IMO, the 2nd amendment was and still is, intended as a DETERRENT against the government FROM becoming a “tyrannical dictatorship”, as well as being our constitutionally stated “God given” right to self defense. Once tyranny has become government, the fight is already over. Armed revolution would be our ONLY recourse if prevention failed, but we would probably already be disarmed. We would not have the weaponry to defeat such a government. The idea that WE should be able to own nuclear weapons to defend ourselves from our own government is so impractical I can’t believe it’s even being discussed on this forum. We (the free countries of the world) are trying to prevent most third world countries from EVER obtaining nuclear weapons because we know they would NOT be used to defend their countries. But instead, would be used to try to oppress other nations who don’t have such weapons, and therefore could not defend themselves from oppressive nations who do. As for the possession of nuclear weapons for personal defense, well that’s just so far out of the bounds of reason that I won’t even talk about it here. I don’t think I saw any posts advocating nuclear weapons for such use either, so on with my post.

As far as the type of weaponry free men have the right to “keep and bear”… We have according to the 2nd amendment, the right to keep and bear arms with which to deter our government from even trying to become a “tyrannical dictatorship” in the first place. However, I believe we have a God given right to personal defense and therefore any weapon appropriate to perform that task. This right supersedes any right men might claim to give us. If it ever got to the point where the citizenry needed nuclear weapons to prevent a “tyrannical” takeover, once again, the fight is already over and we lost. There are “mad men” everywhere, even in our nation, and who really knows, maybe even on this forum. A nuclear weapon in the hands of a “mad man” would NOT be used to prevent the government from becoming a “tyrannical” government. Personal ownership of weapons of mass destruction, would only be used by mad men for their own heinous intentions. Even if law-abiding citizens could own nuclear weapons with the intent of using them as the FF intended when they wrote the 2nd amendment, they couldn’t hope to provide the security needed to prevent those weapons from falling into the hands of third world nations, or terrorists bent on destroying the world as we know it. Even if one or more of us COULD protect such weapons from falling into the hands of the “enemy”, using them would destroy what we are trying to protect in the first place. So the idea of the common man owning weapons of that scale is absolutely ludicrous to say the least, and IMO, insanity.

A “militia” armed with fully automatic weapons, conventional explosives, and MAYBE even rocket launchers armed with conventional warheads, would be enough of a deterrent to PREVENT a democratically elected government from even trying to force the citizens of this country into a dictator state of government. Someone said either here on this site or another pro-gun forum, (I’m not sure which) that the armed militia couldn’t stand up to an organized well trained army, let alone an army with aircraft, tanks, or any of the other advanced weapons our military could bring to bear. Well, I call your attention to Switzerland as Hitler’s army was wreaking havoc across Europe. Although Hitler’s army didn’t have nuclear weapons, they did have all the other “latest and greatest” military weaponry, and the defiant Swiss nation of armed militia men, under directions from the country’s highest general not to surrender under ANY circumstances, was able to remain neutral for the entire war. Why? Because each and every man and boy big enough to carry a rifle, was ready and willing to fight to the death to prevent Hitler from imposing his will on their tiny nation. Virtually all of the other European nations who were defeated by Hitler’s army either gave up without a fight, or put up such a paltry defense before surrendering that it was just a walk in the park for the attacking army. As was stated earlier in this thread, Japan did not invade our west coast because of virtually the same reason. Japan feared our “militia”. Whenever a nation of armed men, willing to fight to the last man, refuse to surrender their liberty to a tyrant, the tyrant WILL ALWAYS BE DEFEATED. It didn’t matter that the men in Switzerland were WAY out gunned. What mattered was they were WILLING to use the weapons they had, and they were WILLING to resist to the end. Here’s a link to a pretty good read I found on a site called Free Republic. I don’t know much about the site, but this is a pretty good read IMO. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1141333/posts

In a nutshell…It simply isn’t worth it to the would be tyrant to engage such a defiant militia no matter how “out gunned” the militia is. I think our FF knew this when they wrote the 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States. The biggest problem we face in IMO, is that we live in a nation full of complacent wussies who wouldn’t defend themselves if they could. I do think there are enough of us who WILL fight tyranny that WE could make up for their lack of balls. One more thing in our favor…The men and women who would comprise the “well organized and well trained military” we would be fighting against if defending ourselves from a tyrannical government, would be OUR sons and daughters, OUR brothers and sisters. I doubt they would be as WILLING to fight FOR the tyrants, as WE are WILLING to fight AGAINST them.

Thanks for listening.

Chaplain Tom
 
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I'm usually not a fan of trying to read the minds of dead guys to determine their intent. I would rather read their words.

But... here goes. It's pretty obvious to me the biggest reason the Founder's ensured the right to keep and bear arms was to give people the ability to respond to EXTERNAL threats.

They had just finished a fight with a foreign nation. Militia played an important part in that war. Great Britain really wanted a re-match. They had real live armies on the Continent. It turns out The Founders were right, the English tried to refight the Revolutionary War twenty some years after the Bill of Rights was ratified.

The Founders were also concerned about native peoples with the nerve to dispute the taking of their land as the nation expanded westward. The Second Amendment was also meant to keep frontier folk ready to fight Indians.

We have to be honest that reason is pretty close to moot now. The Creek or Comanche aren't going to rise anytime soon. And if we have to repel The Chinese People's Army or even Britain's Royal Marines with privately purchased weapons here in the 21st century, we'll lose. All those arms may make us a difficult nation to occupy (Wolverines!!!) but I hope that's not the goal.

So, if we revere the Founders' intent, we have to say the Second Amendment has outlived its raison d'etre. But I revere the Constitution's words. They are absolutely clear: "...shall not be infringed."
 
My objection is that anyone who could afford to own a weapon that has the potential to kill thousands of people in a matter of minutes should be qualified in it's use and have a secure area where they can house it. "not in the driveway", that's all I'm saying. They should also be sane, by whatever the accepted definition is, and attend a timely training period to maintain and practice the use of such equiptment.
Having worked fo the DOD, at a very youn age, this stuff needs constant care and parts need to be checked and replaced on a regular basis. If a person who feels they should own such a weapon has the storage, spare parts, and proper security, that would open another door. Franklly I don't think many people not in the military do have the ability or funds to accomplish this. If they did they probablly all ready have. I have people in my HOA, "home owners association" that couldn't be trusted with a BB gun let alone a B2, or a Tank. Do they get the right to own something that could wipe out an entire neighboorhood, if they come home drunk one night and decide to "fire it up" and take a spin.
 
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My objection is that anyone who could afford to own a weapon that has the potential to kill thousands of people in a matter of minutes should be qualified in it's use and have a secure area where they can house it. "not in the driveway", that's all I'm saying. They should also be sane, by whatever the accepted definition is, and attend a timely training period to maintain and practice the use of such equiptment.
Having worked fo the DOD, at a very youn age, this stuff needs constant care and parts need to be checked and replaced on a regular basis. If a person who feels they should own such a weapon has the storage, spare parts, and proper security, that would open another door. Franklly I don't think many people not in the military do have the ability or funds to accomplish this. If they did they probablly all ready have. I have people in my HOA, "home owners association" that couldn't be trusted with a BB gun let alone a B2, or a Tank. Do they get the right to own something that could wipe out an entire neighboorhood, if they come home drunk one night and decide to "fire it up" and take a spin.
A lot of folks can go and do buy a gun who are neither qualified to buy a gun nor deserve the right to own a gun, but, the 2A says it's OK. I'm down with that, we have laws to get those folks after they do wrong. To some wrong headed folks, owning a gun is the epitome of insanity. Besides, my wife would kill me if I bought another "hobby" to park in my already crowded driveway. The 2500 Duramax gets the driveway and the tank would be on the street getting a parking ticket.
 
From the Federalist Letter Number 84, written during the debate over adopting the new Constitution (which put a lot more power in the hands of government than the Articles of Confederation had) -

"I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power. They might urge with a semblance of reason, that the Constitution ought not to be charged with the absurdity of providing against the abuse of an authority which was not given, and that the provision against restraining the liberty of the press afforded a clear implication, that a power to prescribe proper regulations concerning it was intended to be vested in the national government. This may serve as a specimen of the numerous handles which would be given to the doctrine of constructive powers, by the indulgence of an injudicious zeal for bills of rights."
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa84.htm



In other words, he was worried that by simply writing something down in a bill of rights, someone in goverment would eventually get the idea that anything NOT in the bill of rights was under the authority of the government.
This was clearly not what was wanted.
What was intended was that liberty that wasn't placed under the power of government belonged to the people.
Even without the Second Amendment, we still have a right to bear arms - because government was not delegated the authority to limit that.
Likewise, no requirement to be trained in the safe use of your cannon is enumerated. If you could afford a cannon, or enough to outfit a ship, you were free to do so. There was apparently nothing inherently bad about that - people were trusted to act responsibly.

It's probably true that the Founders didn't forsee the destructive capabilities of some modern weapons. I don't think small arms, grenades, non-nuclear explosives, or artillery fall into that category though. A cannon loaded with canister has a lot of destructive potential, probably at least as much as a burst from a 7.62 machine gun. These men had just seen a war up close and personal - and even at that time and with those primitive weapons, lots of people were getting killed.
But the Founders were smart enough to realize that new, unanticipated things would come up - that's why they made it possible to amend the Constitution.

I think part of the problem is that we have done exactly what the Federalists feared we would - now we think that any right not specifically listed is one we don't have. In fact, that is the polar opposite of their intentions.

But I think I've said that about seven times already... so I'll try to stay out of this one from now on.
 
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I think they in fact did intend for us to have the latest military weaponry. What's more, the more I look at the world around me, I think we need them.
 
There can be little doubt that our founding fathers intended to limit the government's power over the people, not the power of the people. Hence it would be totally appropriate for the people to set their own limitations, based on rationality and their own best interests. That's why they gave us the power to alter the Constitution.

When it comes to dealing with the unknowns of the time, like A-Bombs and tanks, it is appropriate for us to determine how these should be dealt with. For example: it would be far more expedient to turn the responsibility of tank warfare over to the militia than retain it as a personal option. Keep in mind that the tanks still belong to us and are operated by us, but through the auspices of a state national guard. But it's important that the guard must function under the authority of a sovereign state, not the federal government. IMO, there you have the real issue, and it relates directly to the observance of the second amendment. We jealously protect out right to keep and bear arms, but we have been backdoored by the erosion of the states' sovereignty via corruption of the interstate commerce provisions of the Constitution, and other encroachments (such as the seventeenth amendment).

We own our guns, but what of the militia?
 
Let's be honest, we can't get half a dozen people to agree on the same color, how would you go about forming a militia. I live in a development of 350 homes and for 6 months we have been trying to organise a security comitee, I even wrote a letter explaining why we need it and that I am not running for it, but understand that if we don't have it we will be in the same trouble we were before it was disbanded by the builder. We can't even get half the people in here to open their doors and discuss it.
I just think the country is too fragmented for anyone to "take charge" of a local militia , that would be effective, too many chiefs and not enough indians. I think that places like Texas seem to have a better grip on this sort of thinking, You get a bunch of displaced people in many states that all think they know what's best, and nothing gets done.
It's like politics or reality shows, the strongest one usually get's thrown out first. When you look at the way the military trains people it teaches them to work as a team, that is the most difficult part. You take a squad of seals and they can overtake ten times the amount of enemy troops because they act as one unit.
 
Having automatic weapons and explosives won't stop the goverment from oppressing you.
What's with the desire to have military grade weaponry anyway? Do you expect our own military to start "invading" their own homeland? Even if something as far fetched as that did happen, and we had the same equipment, do you really think we'd have a chance against their tactics and organization?
Okay that's about as off topic as I want to be, back to on topic;

The reason that there is restrictions on owning guns, as well as almost anything else that requires responsibility, intelligence, and dilligence, is because no one bothered to outlaw stupidity and laziness.

I bet everyone here knows at least one person they wouldn't let drive their own car, or shoot their own gun, or even cook you dinner.
It is time for bed here in Afghanistan, but this is something I can say from the inside. Should the military be ordered to turn against it's own people as a whole (not looters in a disaster area, or a rebellion of radicals), it would be broken. At least 1/4 would refuse. And worse they might refuse with what armaments they can get in hand.

I could get in trouble for commenting on the tactics comment except to say remember how many vets there are out there. They know how things would work.

I think it would be one bad fight. I for one would not want any part of either side.

Back to the topic. All of the reasons for the 2A have been listed on the first page. I think they all played a small part in getting it in.
 
It is time for bed here in Afghanistan, but this is something I can say from the inside. Should the military be ordered to turn against it's own people as a whole (not looters in a disaster area, or a rebellion of radicals), it would be broken. At least 1/4 would refuse. And worse they might refuse with what armaments they can get in hand.

I could get in trouble for commenting on the tactics comment except to say remember how many vets there are out there. They know how things would work.

I think it would be one bad fight. I for one would not want any part of either side.

Back to the topic. All of the reasons for the 2A have been listed on the first page. I think they all played a small part in getting it in.
Salute sir... stay safe
 
Let's be honest, we can't get half a dozen people to agree on the same color, how would you go about forming a militia. I live in a development of 350 homes and for 6 months we have been trying to organise a security comitee, I even wrote a letter explaining why we need it and that I am not running for it, but understand that if we don't have it we will be in the same trouble we were before it was disbanded by the builder. We can't even get half the people in here to open their doors and discuss it.
I just think the country is too fragmented for anyone to "take charge" of a local militia , that would be effective, too many chiefs and not enough indians. I think that places like Texas seem to have a better grip on this sort of thinking, You get a bunch of displaced people in many states that all think they know what's best, and nothing gets done.
It's like politics or reality shows, the strongest one usually get's thrown out first. When you look at the way the military trains people it teaches them to work as a team, that is the most difficult part. You take a squad of seals and they can overtake ten times the amount of enemy troops because they act as one unit.
I was pretty much implying that the national guard should serve the purpose of a militia, and for this reason the federal government should have no authority over it. It's all about sovereign statehood.
 
Posted by awgrizzly
2 words: term limits

If this does NOT happen soon, we are all lost. I see on the news now that they are actually working toward more reductions to Social Security and Medicare, (both insurance policies we have all paid into for our entire working lives) in order to reduce the federal deficit. Has anyone asked why we still pay someone elected to Washington a $15,000.00 a month pension for life, for serving only ONE term in office. How much could we reduce the federal deficit if we did away with those extravagent compensation packages and limited them to maybe 2 terms in office period. Beck said in his latest book "Broke" something about limiting the salary of congress to what the AVERAGE American makes and limit them to 2 terms.

Back to the topic. The fight over our rights (ALL OF THEM) is not about making things better for the nation. It is as we all know about exercising power over the people. If something is not done soon to limit the power of government over the people, they will eliminate the Bill of Rights altogether. That's why we have the right to Keep and Bear Arms. We just might be using that right to limit their power sooner than we think.
 
The intent of the 2nd amendment was for the people to be able to protect themselves from goverment gone bad. And considering the state our goverment is in, that could be sooner than we think!
 
The intent of the 2nd amendment was for the people to be able to protect themselves from goverment gone bad. And considering the state our goverment is in, that could be sooner than we think!
For certain. I've always felt somewhat secure in that we have a Constitution protecting us from tyranny. Regardless of what one might think of our current situation, one thing has become glaringly clear. The Constitution is only as good as the people we elect to office. With an overwhelming majority in power there is nothing standing in the way of them doing their will, other than "We The People". It has become clear that we have a chilling responsibility and complacency can destroy us.
 
Mission Statement

The impetuses for the Tea Party movement are excessive government spending and taxation. Our mission is to attract, educate, organize, and mobilize our fellow citizens to secure public policy consistent with our three core values of Fiscal Responsibility, Constitutionally Limited Government and Free Markets.

Yep those are some subversive low life's; thanks for bringing that up in your #180 post Harley.
 
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It may be time for a real on fashioned march on Washington, like back in the 60's. I mean when a couple million people showed up on the steps of the Whitehouse, it might get the attention of the American people. The problem is always that no one wants to be inconvienenced yet they all want change. These guys and women in positions of power know this, and count on all of us doing nothing instead of actually organising a real protest that might lead to other better things in the future. But as long as all we do is bitch and moan, you know it's falling on deaf ears.
 
gym you are right on many levels; good news is there seems to be an awakening by many.

I am seeing stuff on major news channels that was Tin Foil Hat stuff just three months ago.

There have been so many thought provoking post in this thread that it really has been a good read and something hopefully worth our time for most.
 
gym - you do have some valid points. On forming a militia, or a march on DC, or a neighborhood watch, I doubt it could be done right now.
For something that drastic to work people have to be desperate for a change. They have to be so miserable that action (protesting or fighting) is the only thing left to do. Fortunately (or unfortunately), we're not there yet. We're stuck in a grey area where things aren't good enough but they're also not bad enough. Trying to work within the system is about the only choice we have, but admittedly, it's not always an effective one.
 
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