Difference in actions for a bolt gun.

[Demos]

I've started dreaming about a custom rifle so I've been looking into different actions and now I'm wondering: How much difference does the action the rifle is built on matter?

I ask this because I started with the idea of finding a sporterized Mauser action, then making it more into a long range precision gun than a hunting rifle. When I started out, it seemed perfect, I'll have a little bit of history in a combat proven receiver that can handle any gasses that would escape a ruptured case. Then the more I started looking into it, the more I started seeing that it might be hard because of availability of parts for the kind of rifle I would want. Then I think I could just buy a Remington 700 or even a Savage action and do it myself. But then comes the Internet telling me I am wasting my time, because I would have to get the action blue printed and trued so you might as well just buy a custom action and save some time and energy.

Now I start looking at Defiant actions, and Big Horn actions and finally Mausingfield actions before I am here to write this post. While they look great, and I understand a lot of the cost is the maker getting paid for the time it took to design and all the expensive tooling, just the Mausingfield action, which needs some kind of finish to be put on, is $1600. Will building a rifle on a $1600 dollar custom action be vastly better than a factory one? Or is it that far past the point of diminishing returns? Is it worth the difference you are paying for that smoother bolt, a stiffer action, and the super tight tolerances the custom action makers claim? Or am I completely missing the target in why these custom actions are out there?

Demos

 

[Robert]

The boutique actions are made to much higher standards and much tighter tolerances than an old milsurp or even a off the shelf factory action. They are made for the shooter that truly wants to ring out every last ninth of accuracy out of a rifle. Most shooters won't notice the difference.

 

[jmr40]

You can buy off the shelf rifles under $500 that shoot under 1 MOA. You can spend closer to $1000 and get 1/2 MOA and very few shooters are capable of doing better even if the rifle is. If your goal in life is to shoot .1 MOA then it is worth the cost.

 

[z7]

I will start by saying I was in your shoes about 3 years ago. One year ago I took a dive and called LongRifles Inc and ordered a Mausingfield barreled action in 308 win. I am sure someone can shoot as good or better than I can with a remington, savage or winchester action, possibly one that is not blueprinted. I am not winning matches, but i am learning how to shoot my rifle. best 10 shot group was 1/2" at 100yds off a bipod and rear bag.

why did I go custom action/custom build? I read a lot about the Mausingfield and what American Rifle Company is/what they are doing. I wanted to support a company that takes pride in perfection. I also like the innovation, it is not just a "better Rem 700"

I liked the idea of being capable of a DIY build/barrel change with the savage thread pattern. I like how things are set up on the mausingfield with the top rail, mauser extractor and springfield ejector. I "bought in" i guess.
the bolt knob and design are unconventional, but if you watch some videos and see how ted designed the knob to work, it is very neat and easy to use.

the biggest selling point was the pages of discussion I read on Snipershide and the posts by Chad Dixon of LongRifles Inc where he discusses beating the crap out of his and not being able to break it. using no lube at all and fireforming 600 pcs of brass using a a false shoulder to crush fit the brass in place, with sand in the action and having the action keep working with no problems, or when he had a piece of brass stuck in the rifle and he "kick started" the bolt open, and proceeded to shoot a two day match with no problems. . . the mausingfield seems to be a robust and well engineered piece of gear that just works. https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/sniper’s-hide®-armory-supply/sniper-s-hide-bolt-action-rifles/6252801-the-mausingfield

The mausingfield now comes from the factory with a DLC treatment for the same $1600 price. no need to coat it. you can literally order one from ARC or another supplier, pick it up from you FFL, screw on a prefit barrel, install trigger and drop it in the stock/chassis of your choice, no gunsmithing required.

I would recommend a few decision points for a custom rifle: what is your budget? can you afford the proper glass?
how do you want to use the gun? I dont think a Mausingfield, in the current form, is ideal for a lightweight hunter
would you be happy with anything that is not a custom action? buy the gun you can afford,and the one you want, put some awesome glass on top and shoot it a whole lot

PS.

if you decide the custom action is not worth it, check out the Tikka actions. they are silky smooth and often do not require the same level of work that a base R700 requires. you can get a nice Tikka, set up for your purpose for less that $2000 ready to shoot.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

http://www.pierceengineeringltd.com/category/actions/product/titanium-action might be a combo option for long range and hunting. my buddy is getting one made right meow. we will see how it goes.
Also i can vouch personally for axial precisions products. on their website they give a brief description on what they believe makes a better gun for a custom action. however their methods are still hush hush until the patenting is finalized.

 

[cdb1]

If I wanted a long range custom rifle I'd use a Model 700 or Savage action. If I wanted a custom rifle for hunting I'd use a current Model 70 or a Montana action.

 

[WelshShooter]

I would only consider a custom action if you're going to get a "custom" calibre. 18 months ago I wanted to get into the 6.5mm scene. I wanted a rifle that produced milder recoil than my lightweight 20" barrel .308 and to make sure it was capable of hitting UK Fig11 targets out to 1,000 yards.

After much pondering I decided on the 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge. I could not buy an off the shelf rifle in that calibre without spending a few thousand pounds/dollars. So I decided to go custom. I went for a blueprinted Remington 700 action as I then had a ton of aftermarket options for chassies/stocks, triggers, scope mounting etc. My gunsmith of choice had a chamber reamer for 6.5x47 Lapua so reaming a 6.5mm barrel would not have cost more compared with a 6.5x55 SWE or .260 remington, plus it was reamed for a specific bullet profile (123gr scenar). By the time I installed a Timney 2-stage trigger, dropped it into a chassis and scope mounted I had already spent a couple of thousand pounds. This was still much cheaper than factory made 6.5x47 Lapua rifles which didn't include a scope.

The rifle shoots around 0.250 MOA at 100 yards which is acceptable. It is capable of hitting a UK Fig11 target (around 0.5m wide and 1.5m high) out to 1,300 yards if I do my bit. The recoil is very manageable (28" barrel) and the action is nice and smooth. Handloading was very easy to do as I didn't have to mess around with testing ridiculous bullet jump distances since my gunsmith reamed the chamber so well. I'm not convinced I would have noticed any difference in accuracy if I had used a Surgeon, Barnard, Badger, Panda etc. action. My precision requirements were not so strict compared with the likes of F-class shooters who may demand a higher level of precision.

Not long after I completed my build, the Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 creedmoor hit the market with good availability of reloading dies and components. That would have been cheaper than my 6.5x47 Lapua build, but I'm still happy with my rifle!

It's easy to start spending more and more money in the custom rifle game. If I did it again, I would define exactly what the rifle should be capable of. What accuracy do you need? What weight constraints do I need (e.g. competitive requirements)? What aftermarket components do I want to use?

 

[Varminterror]

Two truths:

1) The average shooter will not be able to tell the difference in PRECISION between a $700+ factory rifle and a $2,500 custom rifle.

2) There are REAL reasons why so many of us pay for custom actions. There's a realizable difference between a factory action and a custom action, even if most guys can't shoot well enough to realize it.

That said - you will quite likely feel a distinct difference between custom actions and factory actions. A tight factory action doesn't run well, so to feel smooth, they often are left a little looser. A custom action will be tight, but smooth enough to run well.

The only factory actions I really buy any more are Ruger's, because I have the gear to blueprint them, and I still end up at a lower cost for a controlled round feed blueprinted stainless steel action than the other options - plus I like M77's. I've built on a couple PT&G blueprinted Rem actions, but always with a custom PT&G fitted bolt. Do I get my money's worth? Eh, I didn't build a custom rifle to save money, but you can find your answer in the fact I would much rather build more and more custom rifles on custom actions instead of blue printing factory actions.

I'm not sure I'd build on a Mauser ever again. It pains me to say it, but I've had to have every one I've ever done sleeved, and that adds a lot of cost.

I'll also say, talking about a Mauser rebuild vs. a Deviant doesn't make any sense to me. Kinda like talking about what car to buy, and having a Ford F-150 and a Honda Civic on your list... So I'd encourage you to look deeper into what you want to accomplish with the rifle. Any ol' action will kill a whitetail at 600yrds, but for that case, you don't need to spend money for any custom rifle at all. If you DO want something a little "more" from your rifle, then you should be looking at what features are really "you." I personally love stainless rifles, like positive extraction, and prefer a hinged box or DBM with a laminate, fiberglass, or English walnut stock. So for me, that's a blueprinted Ruger or a 700 pattern action with a Sako or M-16 extractor. I prefer an integral recoil lug and integral rail, but not many makers produce stainless actions with integral rails, so I expect to compromise there. I get to pick the stock and barrel contour, which I generally order a steeper pistol grip and a fatter, round belly forend, like a Mac A5, regardless of what material is used. Boyd's Pro-Varmint stocks and PT&G blueprinted Remington actions get my money for cheaper builds. Surgeon and Defiant with Mac A5's are what I favor for "money ain't no thang" builds.

And of course, absolutely NONE of that applies to anything but a hunting/long range/general purpose rifle - any specific competition rifle will use a completely different action. My bench rest rifles have traditionally been Panda's.

 

[hdwhit]

Demos, what are you trying to accomplish with this rifle? Do you just want a custom rifle because it would be unique? Are you aspiring to the "five shot, one hole" crowd? Or do you want a custom rifle just because you can?

Understanding your objective will let you more clearly see what is going to satisfy you and will give the experienced posters here a better basis for advising you.

 

[taliv]

*sigh*

there is a world of difference in actions. most of the differences lead to higher reliability, better ergonomics, and yes, hopefully accuracy.

however, there are also vast differences in custom actions. they are definitely not all created equal.

without listing them all, there are only two actions right now that i would use to build a precision rifle: impact and defiance. if you want to buy a whole rifle, the Accuracy International action is also excellent, but you can't buy just the action.

 

[taliv]

While they look great, and I understand a lot of the cost is the maker getting paid for the time it took to design and all the expensive tooling

kinda, but it's really more about
-small production runs are more expensive
-cost of sales is higher because they have to spend hours on the phone with every customer instead of just shipping 1000 guns to wally world's distribution hub
-many of them are using much much higher quality/harder steel (which is what makes it slick), and that means they go through bits faster and machining takes longer
-they have more features which require more machining. i.e. their design is optimized for shooting, not optimized for fast/cheap manufacture

 

[Clark]

Most shooters won't notice the difference. -Robert

Robert nailed it so hard, I am just typing to keep track of what I am doing.

I build guns every year.
I have 9 out of state tags this year.
The rifles I am now building for hunting next month:
2017:

1) sporterized 1941 Arisaka type 99
New Win M70 25-06 take off barrel I converted to 257 Roberts
Leupold 120617 vx2 rimfire EFR CDS 3x9x33, with small eyepiece to fit bolt weld
Timney trigger
My design pillars

2) 2004 Ruger 10/22
Tactical innovations barrel 22LR
1989 Leupold VX III 2.5x8x32
Volquartsen Trigger
Kidd bolt

3) 2003 Savage 12 fvss
Lilja barrel I chambered to 250 Savage
Timney trigger
Glade bolt handle
Boyds stock
My design V block
My bolt handle design

4) 1953 Win M70 308
Restoration job, close to original, except 1956 stock and Uncle Mike's sling studs.

5) 1965 Rem 700 BDL
Convert to ADL with Kevlar Stock
Benchmark barrel I chambered to 6.5-06
Timney trigger
PTG bolt
My pillar design
My bolt handle design
Leupold VX-6HD, 2-12X42mm,

6) 1965 Rem700 BDL
Convert to ADL with Brown Precision stock
Lilja barrel I chambered to 7mmRemMag
Timney trigger
PTG bolt
My pillar design
My bolt handle design
Leupold VX-6HD 3-18x44mm

 

[Nature Boy]

I went down this trail this year. Ended up choosing the Mausingfield action. Here's my thread on the subject

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/custom-rifle-ideas.817486/

Here's a thread on my load development for it

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/308-long-range-load-development-results.822638/

It's been worth it to me and I would not change a single decision. Perhaps the most important decision being who you choose as custom builder and listening to them.

 

[Demos]

To answer the questions above:

Unfortunately, where I'm at financially this is more a thought project/ dream. Ideally I would be building a rifle that I could use in a PRS match (but even that is a financial dream because the closest ones to me would be so much travel I would be staying in a hotel room).

To refine my questions some more, I am going to try asking it in a few different ways. If I had three rifles, and for the sake of this example I'll say a Savage, a Big Horn, and a Mausingfield and all three had the same barrel, chassis, scope, rings, trigger, etc. and I shot a PRS match would any of them handicap me to a noticeable degree? Or if went to a PRS match with a made the top shooter use a Savage 110 BA Stealth Evolution would he drop in the rankings while I would move up with his fully custom gun (A "it's not the arrow it's the Indian" kind of thing)?

Or, how I'm reading the replies is yes, there are substantial differences that explain why a custom action is both more expensive and worth that difference in price if you are working the gun hard/ using it for a specific task. However, many casual shooters would be just as happy with either. If that is the case, I expect the answers to my new questions are yes, you would be able to tell the difference between a stock action and a custom one in competition, and the the top shooter will probably shoot worse with a stock gun, but you might not shoot any better with a custom one because that wasn't the limiting factor.

Thanks,
Demos

 

[4v50 Gary]

Should start with reading Stuart Otteson's The Bolt Action Rifle, Vol. I & II, and then perhaps Frank Zeglin's P. O. Ackley: America's Gunsmith.

It's more than just the action and one should consider the manufacturing expenses. To machine a Springfield 03 or Mauser 98 is expensive today. To make a Rem 700 is cheaper. Why? The 700 is basically tubular steel that is cut for and ejection port and magazine well (as well as for the bolt). There's a reason why guns evolved.

 

[Nature Boy]

The the question of "worth" is such a relative and individual thing to answer.

The question of worth often comes up in the reloading forum like, "is it worth it to reload 9mm or .223"

There's an intrinsic value to having something that you appreciate or doing something that makes you happy. Typically, since none of us shoot a rifle for a living or save very much from reloading, none of this, from a financial perspective, is worth what we spend. You have to decide what would make you happy, set a goal and work towards it. Otherwise, comprise and get something that costs less and run the risk of regretting it later. There's a "worth" to that part of the equation as well.

 

[Clark]

Nature Boy: I went down this trail this year. Ended up choosing the Mausingfield action. Here's my thread on the subject



I just first saw a drawing a Mausingfield action at SH yesterday. I sent relatives pics of that action in cross section. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

I am still sneaking up on a headspace like Fred Flintstone.

 

[taliv]

To answer the questions above:

Unfortunately, where I'm at financially this is more a thought project/ dream. Ideally I would be building a rifle that I could use in a PRS match (but even that is a financial dream because the closest ones to me would be so much travel I would be staying in a hotel room).

awful lot of club matches these days. what area are you in?

To refine my questions some more, I am going to try asking it in a few different ways. If I had three rifles, and for the sake of this example I'll say a Savage, a Big Horn, and a Mausingfield and all three had the same barrel, chassis, scope, rings, trigger, etc. and I shot a PRS match would any of them handicap me to a noticeable degree?

none of those three would keep you out of breaking into say, the top 25%, but it could depending on the course of fire, keep you out of say, the top 10. (assuming you magically put a different trigger into the savage)

Or if went to a PRS match with a made the top shooter use a Savage 110 BA Stealth Evolution would he drop in the rankings while I would move up with his fully custom gun (A "it's not the arrow it's the Indian" kind of thing)?

yeah, the top shooter would probably drop out of the top 10, maybe lower.
yeah, if you knew how to use it.
you need a good indian and a good arrow to be competitive.