Different Guns for USPSA and Steel?

[Doublehelix]

I have been shooting SCSA for a while now, but I just started with USPSA late last year, so I am a bit of a newbie.

But being the rich (?) idiot that I am, I bought a nice used 2011 gun in .40 S&W for shooting USPSA Limited Major.

For SCSA, I have been shooting my 9mm SIG P226 SAO Legion (also in Limited), but I have some great "mouse fart loads" that I have been using that are very, very light and accurate. I love them!

The problem is that the 2011 and the P226 have different feels, and I am running a race holster with the 2011 which has a completely different feel than the DOH Bladetech kydex holster that I have been using with the P226.

My question: Is it wise to shoot the same gun with the same loads for these two sports? The .40 S&W load is obviously a "spankier" load than the 9mm, and I hate to lose the low recoil mouse fart loads, but boy the 2011 is such a sweet gun, and I want to focus on muscle memory with draws and transitions between targets.

So what are you guys doing?

 

[waktasz]

I shoot 40 in everything. I have a Major load and a Minor load.
The rare times I shoot Steel Challenge I shoot my Production gun and minor ammo. It's good practice for the DA first shot.

 

[ATLDave]

You could make some pretty gentle loads for that 40 for steel. You'd likely need to swap to a lighter recoil spring, but a 135 grain bullet over a small charge of fast powder should let you get sub-minor PF out of a 40.

 

[Doublehelix]

I shoot 40 in everything. I have a Major load and a Minor load.
The rare times I shoot Steel Challenge I shoot my Production gun and minor ammo. It's good practice for the DA first shot.

You could make some pretty gentle loads for that 40 for steel. You'd likely need to swap to a lighter recoil spring, but a 135 grain bullet over a small charge of fast powder should let you get sub-minor PF out of a 40.

I thought about creating a lighter load for the .40, and then just shooting a single competition rig. I might have to work up some .40 mouse farts as well and see how they do. I have a spring set that goes down to 10# for this gun (I am currently shooting 12#), so that should not be a problem.

My 9mm mouse fart loads are coming in at a PF of 100, which is crazy light (100 gr. .380 bullets at 1,000 fps). Not sure I can get down to 100 PF, but I might work on this and see what I can come up with for .40.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I have two slide assemblies for my steel frame P226, one for 9mm and one for 40.

Depending on which game I am playing or what division I am in, I will opt for one or the other.

So far works pretty good.

 

[IndianaBoy]

If I were in your shoes I would develop a mousefart 40 load for your 2011.

 

[waktasz]

100pf is too slow IMO. The gun feels funny below a certain point. I'm loading for Production division and getting about 134pf and it feels light, but not sluggish.

 

[Doublehelix]

100pf is too slow IMO. The gun feels funny below a certain point. I'm loading for Production division and getting about 134pf and it feels light, but not sluggish.

Actually, they shoot pretty well in my gun. They are small bullets (100 gr.) and at just north of 1,000 fps, they are snappy enough to be accurate, which is pretty important. I can tell the difference between these and those that make minor PF, that is for sure, but they are still responsive enough to be very shootable, at least for me.

 

[thomas15]

My question: Is it wise to shoot the same gun with the same loads for these two sports? The .40 S&W load is obviously a "spankier" load than the 9mm, and I hate to lose the low recoil mouse fart loads, but boy the 2011 is such a sweet gun, and I want to focus on muscle memory with draws and transitions between targets.

So what are you guys doing?

My 9mm mouse fart loads are coming in at a PF of 100, which is crazy light (100 gr. .380 bullets at 1,000 fps). Not sure I can get down to 100 PF, but I might work on this and see what I can come up with for .40.

Sorry I missed this post. You are asking a really good question, one that I have pondered as of late and sorry to say I have no words of wisdom here.

I'm in a different but similar situation, I shoot SCSA revolver optical sight. I want to branch out so I added an identical revolver that I will run iron sight. Also, I want to shoot some USPSA and also ICORE which is very similar to USPSA except it is all revolver. This means that I have two (2) guns and two (2) loads. In USPSA using an optic on a revo puts you in open class so I needed an iron sight gun for that. ICORE has open and limited divisions so good there. I will shoot in USPSA minor pf which is 125 same as ICORE. My SCSA loads is the same as yours- a bunny fart. But keep in mind, a bunny fart in revolver is exactly that a true bunny fart because all we need is enough speed to hit the target. Mine are like shooting a rimfire.

I apologize that all of this sounds so convoluted. Although both of my revolvers are S&W 929s and had the actions tuned by the same revolversmith and even have trigger pulls well within about a half pound, they have different feels. Also, as you DH have mentioned there are differences in the loads although I'm not contemplating major pf for USPSA (even the top revo shooters shoot minor). Still , there is a difference between my bunny fart and my minor loads, actually quite a bit of difference. That and the different feel of the guns and the sight differences have me scratching my head same as you.

There is actually another question that I have and I'm sure this is also on your radar screen and that is how do you practice the two guns? For example, dry fire, do you split the time 50/50 or some other ratio? Odd/even days? In Steel Challenge there are many that shoot multiple guns so I'm going to start researching this question. I think though that while there are some shooters that are good at multiple guns/multiple disciplines, for me at least I have to make a decision on which cof I want to do my (Ha Ha) best in. Deep down in my spleen I get the feeling that I'm actually making things harder on myself by trying at this point to add more things to my competition schedules. My current thinking on the matter is SCSA OSR primary, SCSA ISR secondary, then give myself a year to get comfortable (ie: dabble) in USPSA and ICORE revolver (mostly ICORE) and not worry about doing well just settle for trying to keep from making a fool of myself. All of these cof I have shot but USPSA production mostly. At least for me I think the answer in theory will come down to priorities and goals. My #1 goal for this year is to make A in SCSA OSR. This will be my second year in SCSA. I don't want to lose sight of that goal.

But again it is a good question you ask. I think the easiest solution to the OP is to settle for minor pf in USPSA, at least for now and see where things go from there. This will at least reduce the gap between the bunny farts and the USPSA loads.

 

[egd]

My dilemma is between my pistol and pcc. They are both so much fun. Although I do shoot both in steel challenge.

 

[Doublehelix]

There is actually another question that I have and I'm sure this is also on your radar screen and that is how do you practice the two guns? For example, dry fire, do you split the time 50/50 or some other ratio? Odd/even days?

For the last 2 months or so, all of my dry fire has been with the new 2011 out of a race holster. I have brought out my 9mm SIG and the Bladtech DOH kydex holster for some quick surrender position draw work, and I find it is very clumsy compared to the 2011 and the race holster. Probably because I have spent so much time with it lately.

This comes back to my point of having a single platform for both sports, **OR** having something completely different like a revolver, rim fire or even PCC. Having 2 limited-style guns (SAO) shooting two different calibers at vastly different power factors is a difficult task, and that does not even include the differences in draws between a race holster and a kydex.

I have some loads I am going to be working up soon, and hopefully I can find a solution where I can use the 2011 for both USPSA and SCSA.

Thanks!

 

[thomas15]

This comes back to my point of having a single platform for both sports, **OR** having something completely different like a revolver, rim fire or even PCC. Having 2 limited-style guns (SAO) shooting two different calibers at vastly different power factors is a difficult task, and that does not even include the differences in draws between a race holster and a kydex.

We are in total agreement here. As I said, using two identical guns (one iron sight the other dot), and using the exact same holster (Race Master), belt and moon clip holders, I find it difficult to go from 1 gun to the other. I think for now I'm going to practice with both guns equally in the same session and maybe after more time passes I will learn to adjust accordingly.

 

[1911 guy]

I know I'm the odd man out in most of these "What gun for X?" discussions. I'm a believer in the practice of playing with range toys (a legitimate source of fun) at the range and carrying, training, and gaming with the same pistol or pistols identical in every meaningful way. Range time is for enjoyment. So enjoy yourself. But CCW, related training and competition shooting build muscle memory. Don't build competing memory sets.

 

[Doublehelix]

We are in total agreement here. As I said, using two identical guns (one iron sight the other dot), and using the exact same holster (Race Master), belt and moon clip holders, I find it difficult to go from 1 gun to the other. I think for now I'm going to practice with both guns equally in the same session and maybe after more time passes I will learn to adjust accordingly.

I know I'm the odd man out in most of these "What gun for X?" discussions. I'm a believer in the practice of playing with range toys (a legitimate source of fun) at the range and carrying, training, and gaming with the same pistol or pistols identical in every meaningful way. Range time is for enjoyment. So enjoy yourself. But CCW, related training and competition shooting build muscle memory. Don't build competing memory sets.

Thanks guys for the input... good stuff.

I also carry SAO, and I am very used to hitting the safety with my thumb on a draw. I prefer hammer-fired SAO guns, and currently only own one "plastic" striker-fired gun (H&K VP9).

It makes perfect sense to me to be consistent between platforms as much as possible. For competition, the new 2011 is just similar enough to my SIG P226 SAO to be easy to use, but just dissimilar enough to be slightly awkward at things like the draw and mag changes. The actual shooting part is similar enough, except that one is a 9mm and one is a .40 S&W.

I am really going to work on just using the 2011 (.40) for both USPSA and SCSA, now I just need to work up a steel load for .40 that I can feel comfortable with.

 

[thomas15]

I am really going to work on just using the 2011 (.40) for both USPSA and SCSA, now I just need to work up a steel load for .40 that I can feel comfortable with.

My revolver SCSA load is roughly 90 pf. Of course for USPSA I need 125pf. I know some who in my position have figured out loads that will work in the same revo that don't require sight adjustments. Mine aren't perfect in that respect but for this exercise we don't need perfect accuracy.

Anyway not to change the subject but it seems as if this winter will never end, we had snow flurries last night and the temp hardly got into the 40s today. However the calendar tells a different story. Next weekend the season kicks into gear. We have a tier 1 SCSA (with all 8 stages) on Saturday and a steel league match (5 outlaw stages) on Sunday. I expect to hit the range for live fire practice at least once before Saturday, probably twice. For my first full blown SCSA match of the year I'm only shooting 1 gun which is the same gun I'm shooting in the league. The second league match is the following week so right now I have 800 rounds loaded and ready to go. Plus the PSA Shootout (2 guns-falling steel=125pf) is the end of the month I have 700 rounds of that ammo so I have 1500 rounds in the hopper and will need more by the first week of May.

Starting in May I'm shooting 2 guns in SCSA and possibly 2 guns in the league. Although both of the guns are the same model and I use the same loads I do use different brass in each of them (one uses Winchester headstamp, the other uses Federal). I have tried and tried everything to get reliable performance with 1 headstamp but this is what works. It's a pain though.

 

[thomas15]

My dilemma is between my pistol and pcc. They are both so much fun. Although I do shoot both in steel challenge.

It seems like everyone is shooting PCC in Steel Challenge. I have several other guns (not PCC) that I could use in SCSA but haven't so far. I have an open rimfire rifle (S&W AR15-22), an open rimfire pistol (S&W Victory 22), an iron sight rimfire pistol (Ruger MK 3 Target), a production rig (G-17 with a DAA holster/belt) and a Single Stack (Remington R-1 with a Comp-tac holster). Plus I have enough magazines for each gun to shoot it properly.

So, do I need a PCC gun? No. but I want one. I was thinking about building one, on an AR platform (AR-9) but you know.....when I feel the need I remind myself that I have goals for this year in SCSA.

Last year was my first year doing this (SCSA revolver). I started out as a D shooter, quickly made it to C class and at the end of the season just barely by the slimmest of margins made B class. I really want to make A class this year so I need to stay on task.