Discuss

[sm]

Just an itch that keeps coming back, and it seems I am not the only one with the itch.

Granted I admit being real close to 50 y/o. I recall a time when a person sent in a postcard from the back of magazine, and the postman brought your gun to your door COD. I like the simple OLD craftsmanship, pride put into making shotguns, the Wood used and the deep Blue finishes.

Bean Counters, Litigation and whatnot have changed shotguns- and everything else. Add Madison Ave to the mix.

I have heard of two folks having broken extractors on new shotguns - MIM parts. We have read PJR's Rant with Big Green, I have spoken of how I hated the J lock safety...etc.

I hope I am not the only one that has informed various Mfgs of my distaste with QC, parts ( MIM) and add ball detent and everything else.

In the case of the extractors, well the replacment was MIM . One is hard pressed to find the old extractors. One fellow bought an extra bolt to have as backup.

I prefer the older guns, that said the way I see it with older guns and especially the parts of old getting more scarce, to find and hoard older parts. Heck I am going to look for older 870 bolts. If need, I will have a machinist make me the old style firing pins, and extractors.

I admit I have more experience with Remington, Ithaca and Win, Mossbergs were not around much as I recall growing up in my parts. I have been really dissapointed with some Mfgs and the "import" lines they now have.

Never had a Problem with a Browning pump either ( any Browning for that matter) , Most Beretta's I used were semis - starting with the 302, 303's...

I'm focusing more on pump shotgunsguns, value for the money here - not that the problem does not bleed over into other platforms,( semi,) handguns, rifles...etc.

Truth is the pump gun by an American Mfg is still the best value for less than a week's pay. [Dave]

Now I haven't seen a new production Ithaca, I have this gut feeling Ithaca learned some stuff from experiences of theirs and others. I'm betting Ithaca kept the old school craftsmanship , metallurgy , QC and such, I'm really wanting to see and handle one.

I'm not into tricking a gun out, no add ons or gadgets. I am talking about a Quality Shotgun, that works, gives good service and is reliable. I know fro experience too many bone stock guns worked for everything for too many years. It was always the skills of the shooter, not the equipment, or gun used.

Thought we'd toss and kick this around. We have new folks coming into the shotgun ranks and I'm old fashioned to believe in getting a good value for the money. I'd rather see folks stay in the ranks - than be turned off .

Steve

 

[Brian Dale]

sm, you wrote,

I like the simple OLD craftsmanship, pride put into making shotguns, the Wood used and the deep Blue finishes.

I like used. Older, if not abused or neglected (read that as "rusted"), is generally better, as far as I'm concerned. I just like 'em.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Steve,

You said it. Quite well too. There are some improvements that technology has brought, but at the same time it has cost us in some areas.

I've been tinkering with 870s for a good while now. I settled on it as my favored design a good while ago, though I like to play with other designs as the budget and opportunity allow. But the one thing I have done is to gather parts at every opportunity. Some have come from working on guns for other folks, like all the issue safties I swapped out for big-head safeties of one description or another. Little did I know Remington was going to change the design to J-hook monstrosities and that parts-box compartment of old safeties would come in handy. But I never throw anything away that has any use left in it, in case it might be needed again sometimes. And so I have a bait of black and gray plastic followers and the retainer caps for magazine tubes with dimples too.

Since all the parts most likely to fail (extractor and firing pin) on an 870 are in the bolt, I gathered spare bolts whenever possible too. Not too much worry about headspace on shotguns, and on 870s it can be cured with an oversize bolt lug or by swapping barrels. And spare barrels always come in handy too...

And furniture? I have a whole bin of furniture, black plastic, walnut and birch/beech. We can have a knockdown dragout buttstroke convention around here and I can get a dozen 870s back on the street with whole stocks. My 'price' for swapping out furniture was always keeping the old furniture, if the owner found that agreeable. I had the necessary tools and experience and oftentimes that offer was acceptable. In fact I have never taken money directly for working on someone's 870 for them, preferring tools or parts in exchange instead.

Last time I was in the big city (a couple weeks ago) I looked over and left behind two used 870s that were good buys, a left-handed Wingmaster tagged at $249 and an older pre-dimple Express for less than $200. There are lots of Cinderellas out there for anyone with willingness to look and knowledge to tell what is a good buy. Extra barrels are around too. Friends or friends of friends can be asked for shopping help if needed, or other advice and/or help also. No need to suffer the whims and vagaries of new age accountants and lawyers when so much good old stuff is out there.

Lucky us...

lpl/nc (50 in the rearview mirror...)

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - You want to hear a dirty little secret of mine? I've never bought a bad shotgun. I've got some Model 12s which are older than my mom (who's nearly 80), and they run just great. I've got some fairly recent production Italian autoloaders with thousands of shells through them, and they run great too. I've got an 870 from the '50s which works fine, and an A-5 from the '30s which has killed some birds for me as well. My Browning O/U and my wife's Beretta O/U are ticking along beautifully.

I admit to having a soft spot for "the classics" (which accounts for the numerous shotguns I own which were well worn before I was even brought into this world). However, recent production guns can work flawlessly. Frankly, if you look at the Beretta 391s... they're around $800 or so... but I still think a good value. Soft shooting, good handling, and readily capable of digesting more rounds than most people shoot in a lifetime. Good enough that some of the better sporting clays guys are shooting them, even when they could be using high-$$$ O/Us.

Pumps are great, no doubt. For most types of hunting, I'll pull one from the safe before anything else. My HD gun is a 1300, so I trust my family and my life with it. However, after working with quite a few new shooters over the past few years, I think an autoloader is better for breaking clays. The gas-operated ones are softer on the shoulder, and not having to shuck them removes one more thing for the shooter to have to do.

As far as imports and such... My 1930's Browning was made in Belgium. My 2000 Browning was made in Japan. Both are well made and will be handed down to my kids (and their kids as well). My Benellis and the Berettas are very nicely done, while most of the Winchester Super X-2s I've looked over appear as though monkeys (on crack) with files were let loose inside the receivers.

FWIW, I've recently looked at some finely made shotguns which are hand-crafted right here in the USA. Workmanship and quality is outstanding. The attention to detail and craftsmanship is first rate. But, you pay for that kind of quality. An O/U from Kolar is going to start around $8K. It sounds like a lot, but the locally available Winchester Model 21s are either not much less, or much, much more. Heck, Model 42s are going for more than even the most expensive Italian autoloaders.

It used to be in this country that labor was cheap and the raw materials were the expensive part of manufacturing. That is no longer true. Things like MIM parts and synthetic stocks are easy and cost effective for machines to produce by the truckload. Labor in the US is expensive, and for the most part, people aren't willing to pay "extra" for quality (which accounts for the proliferation of Wal-Mart and such).

It's a reason why I almost always spend my $$$ on stuff from the used racks... and if I'm buying new I go for the "higher-end" products. If I’m looking for a pump, I’ll likely walk away with a worn Model 12 or an older Wingmaster for about the same money as an 870 Express… and have a nicer gun. If I’m looking for something that I plan to compete with, then I’ll spend the extra money to get a well-made, more highly finished current-production gun.

But like I said when I started this whole reply… I’ve never bought a bad shotgun.


- Mike (by the time I'm 50, Steve will be complaining about 60)

 

[P95Carry]

Mike (by the time I'm 50, Steve will be complaining about 60)

Darn Mike - that means I'll be whining about being 70 - IF still here that is!!!

Steve ......... Tho I have relatively new - viz 870 and my baikal - I do tend to favor good older stuff. Certainly that applies with handguns quite a bit. Does too of course I think make a lot of difference what manufacturer. Some have defaulted downthe MIM trail - others seemingly have held more traditional values.

If it's older, good and worth what is asked then .. Price is Right ... come on down!! Assuming that is I am in market in first place!

 

[sm]

Do I know how to start a bonfire or what? Now where is that other gas can..."Whoosh!!

Import - I used this word out of convienence, not really what I meant. Yes the Belgium Brownings, the Mirkou (Japanenese) SKBs ,Italian Berettas and many others are very very good guns- though not "made in USA".

I was referring to the "less than stellar quality , materials and service" guns not made in the States. Okay that really don't work either - The States have some firearms produced that are Junk. Hey I call as I see 'em.

Being "old school" and not buying into every new thing and fad...staying with some "classics" , "proven" , "basic" concepts and designs I have not technically bought a bad shotgun either. Granted I have bought one that found itself b/t a Bronco and flatbottom bottom boat that needed some attention. One with a bbl needing some attention after being fired with mud in the muzzle. I can look stupid with cash in hand and "take it off their hands". I knew what I had and what I was gonna do....I just left in a hurry while they were still laughing to get some distance.

We have moved away from Pumps, and that is okay. Principle is the same. I just get irked at what comes out of the factory at times. As if the customer is supposed to beta test it. Then getting service is like pulling teeth.

New Folks ( don't get me started, soap box ain't tall enough) - New folks are NOT being raised to shoot as they used to be. Families don't pass down, Schools - darn sure don't let kids shoot on school ground as they once did. Fact is - we use to raise / have this "Nation of shooters". It is what you did.

Kids growing up had real life hands on experience with guns. So they knew what a Ithaca could do, Browning A5, Beretta 303...You know kids are not raised right and missing out when they don't have the Ford/ Chevy/ Mopar Arguments ( and testing on "River Roads" ) anymore.

So us old geezers and fuddy duds know about the great guns. WE keep our eyes out for them, we are most likley to walk past the new gun sections and drool over the old stuff.

New Folks have the Internet, gun mags ( I was nice I didn't type gun rags) and honest to goodness - they don't have any idea what is "good" or what is "bad". Nobody taught them, and nobody supported any interest they had to know. Add the "new stuff mentality"....new must be gooder...because MIM is newer is has to better than what Grandpa must have "gotten by " with.

So I get laughed at for buying an old , worn blue pump for $125 by a ....err...younger fellow buying the "Genuine Imitation Clone" built somewhere I cannot pronounce...

Folks have allowed factories to run over them and not fuss. So the factories continue to see " how much more can we get by with".

Reality is - some of us have spilled more shot than some folks will ever shoot. These old guns made well will continue to perform and shoot high round counts.

I just would like to think a new shooter will still be able to buy a 2005 model and in 20, 30, 40 years hear him say - " yeah I wish I'd bought 3 of these classic guns back when ...

Trapper - I ain't ever acted my age - don't plan on starting either.

 

[sm]

OT - but hey it is my thread.

Chris, I gotta feeling you are like me - you don't and won't act your age either.

I lost my cane. NO smart remarks. I had one before I had double knee surgery, sometimes there were / are places a fellow cannot legally CCW. I feined a limp and used a cane. I REALLY used it when the knees went south, I do not need one - I just use one as tool when I cannot CCW legally.

I looked at some newer canes...don't know how they can mess up a cane, but they did. Gotta find me an OLD pc of wood cane, like I had before.

This new stuff might look like a cane - it ain't.

 

[Brian Dale]

sm, you wrote,

As if the customer is supposed to beta test it.

"As if?" To my eye, there's no "as if;" that's exactly what manufacturers are doing. The only difference is that with some products there's no "final" version; beta is all you get.

My Dad (granddads, other elders) taught me different: it's supposed to be right when you put down your money.

And if I put down my money for a classic old gun that I've examined thoroughly, the chances of it being right are excellent.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good topic. A couple things...

Good guns are quite cost effective, when you figure out the cost per shot. They last also. A couple of mine for examples.

A Colt commercial GM made in 1943 and worked into a bullseye gun has at least 10K rounds through it since I became its custodian and is as tight as it was at purchase.

A first model Colt Trooper, the one built on the same frame as the Python has been tightened up at least once, Another 10K gun, thought it's getting a hair loose for my tastes. Made in the late 50s, it's a fine example of craftmanship.

870s here runs from the first year of production up. My 1950 870 doesn't look new, but with care it should last another half century or more as a working shotgun.It does shuck smoothly, as does Number 6(1955) and the TB(1978) but not as smoothly as Frankenstein with its mongrel heritage and multiple uses.

And it's not just me. Last time I went to PGC, I admired Tom Held's recently acquired Model 42. Looks like new, and if held vertically with the muzzle up and the release hit, the thing opens up all by itself. That qualifies as smooth in my book. Another 40s gun, IIRC.

I had business on the Shore yesterday, and I stopped by Vonnie's in Kennedyville because it's usually worthwhile. A combination gun shop and restaurant, it's a fascinating place. Old repeaters there included an early A-5 in near new condition for $550 and a nice field grade Model 12 for $350.

Good classic shotguns are out there for prices close to those of new imports that will not hold up like the old ones and do not have that magical sweetness we call "Feel". To me, the choice is simple...