Divots in ar500 steel

[ThePenguinKnight]

TLDR version: look at pics on bottom of post, is the damage normal for .30-06 PSP (right) and 223 fmj (left) at 100yds on ar500?

Full version:

Got a steel target, claimed to be ar500, from an eBay vendor. A LOT of good ratings on ebay, and they responded to inquiries quickly, so I decided to try it. This was my first foray into steel targets, and I figured if it didn't work for rifles I could keep it as a pistol target.

Took it out to test shoot, to see if it can stand up to what was claimed. I shot it with .30-06, 223, 7.62x39, and 9mm. Rifle calibers were shot from 100yds, the 9mm from about 10yds.

9mm left no damage at all, as expected.

7.62x39 load was Herters 124gr HP bimetal jacket, from a 16" Saiga AK. It left a barely perceptable dimple, effectively no damage.

223 was Tula 55gr fmj bimetal, fired from a 16" Ar15. I chronoed this ammo to be between 2775 and 2880ish fps from this rifle. It left a perceptable, but still extremely slight dimple for each shot. Very very very minor "damage".

Two loads of .30-06 were shot from a 20" barrel; the first was a Hornady 150gr ballistic tip bullet chronoed at 2850ish FPS (at the muzzle), the second was a hornady 150gr Pointed Soft Point (PSP) also chronoed at 2850fps (at the muzzle). The ballistic tip load left no perceptable damage, but the PSPs left significant divots.

In the attached pictures, the '06 PSP hit is on the right, 223 hit on the left (repainted for easy viewing).

Is this damage normal for ar500? Why did the PSP hurt the steel so dramatically worse than any other load? I've been told SP ammo is generally better for steel than fmjs, but these results leave me wondering what's up.

Thanks. Good day at the range =)

 

[taliv]

yep, normal. bimetal will jack up your targets. i don't let people shoot my targets with it. 30-06 is a lot of energy for shooting steel at that distance. i wouldn't shoot 30-06 in the first place, but i dang sure wouldn't shoot it at steel at 100 yards.

if sp is different than fmj, i dunno.

 

[ms6852]

I shoot 30-06 , 7mm and 270. I found the 7mm and 270 did more damage at 100 yds.
Increase your distance to at least 200 yds or more or stick to smaller calipers. The divots look normal for the range.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

When reading about steel targets for rifles, I got a lot of conflicting info. Most manufacturers and reviews indicated that everything up to 30-06 was ok on steel at 100, but plenty of other people said they wouldn't do it. Wanted to see for myself.

I plan to use my target for rifle practice at 150-300 yds, and for pistol practice at 10-50yds.

I'm glad to hear that this piece of steel is behaving as normal. Thanks.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

That is normal. My gun club has AR500 at 100 and 200 yards. We have no restrictions on calibers/ammo used. They get shot hundreds of times a week. The current gongs are over a year old and don't have deep craters.

 

[taliv]

there are a lot of things you can do to improve the situation....

hang the target at an angle, and loosely so that it can swing. these are the big dog steel target hangers i use which do exactly that. the swing allows it to absorb a lot of the energy

[resize=400] [/resize]

use smaller targets (see image above). full size ipscs are very heavy and won't swing much when hit because of their weight. thus they tend to get pock marks and dents faster

reverse the target for pistol. keep the smooth flat side facing you for pistol, then reverse it for long range rifle.

 

[silicosys4]

Yup, looks normal to me too, I have an AR500 torso on a popper stand, and after several hundred .308, .223, and numerous handgun rounds it looks like that with the exception of one strange looking, gnarly divot/gouge that looks like a bullet hit it sideways.
Might have been a ricochet off of the ground in front of it, but it sure is puzzling how it made such a large gouge.

 

[Walkalong]

Velocity is the enemy of steel targets. FMJ should be rougher on steel than a soft point of comparable speed/weight. Rigidity of the steel target affects how much energy it takes. Weight and how it is attached to the support can make a big difference. The angle makes a difference as well. If the target is angled down and hung loosely, it will take much less of the energy than one that is fairly square to the shooter and more rigidly attached.

Speed: I have shot my 16" round 1/2" steel target (Heavy) with my .458 Winchester Magnum at 100 yards. It has a lot of energy, but is slow in comparison to the 30.06 or .270 etc. The target is angled down and hung on chains. Not real loose, but far from rigid. It doesn't hurt the steel. The .223 doesn't hurt it either, but I don't use steel care and the velocity has dropped under 3000 FPS at 100 yards.

I use it mainly for plinking at with .223, 300 BLK, a 9MM carbine, and handguns. I have smaller targets for shooting more precisely.

Limit velocity (Might mean shooting it a a longer distance), use soft points in higher speed/energy calibers, angle the steel down, hang it loosely, and your less likely to see damage.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Last year my son holed my 3/8" ar500 target at 75 yards.

In retro I should have known better but after being shot with everything from 264wm to 375h&h to 300wby I just didn't think about those 40g hp factory 22-250 loads steel cutting potential

Luckily it holed clean through instead of cratering which would have ruined the target

 

[show_me_2nd]

Just a real noob question: why does cratering ruin the target?

 

[R.W.Dale]

It can turn bullets and bullet fragments back at you!!

 

[Walkalong]

The difference between shooting 1/2" AR500 at 100 yards and 3/8" AR500 at 25 yards with a .458. (I know, I know, but curiosity killed the cat...... although I was suspect for a while.) And I have already been chastised thoroughly for shooting it too close.

Don't shoot steel too close for the energy or velocity.

1/2" AR500 @ 100 Yards: No holes/damage.

3/8" AR500 @ 25 Yards: Cut through like a laser.

 

[Chuck R.]

I've got about 30 pieces of AR500 on my range, and agree with the other guys. HV rifle rounds are hard on AR500, especially as close as 100 yards.

How bad the damage is really depends on how you're using it, IF it's strictly a rifle target, then the dimples won't bother you as you'll be shooting at a greater distance and splash back is a non-issue. My pistol targets I maintain in perfect shape to reduce the potential for splash back/ricochets. Once one of my pistol/multi-use targets get's dimpled it's moved back to be a strictly rifle target.

As the other guys pointed out, mounting at an angle helps as does allowing the target to move. I use a combination of chains for rifle targets and springs for my pistol targets:

For the chain targets, use nuts as spacers in between the plate and chain as it will force the plate to hang at an angle.





Springs have enough give to prevent damage.


My portable stands (Arntzen), hold the plate at a downward angle and allow movement:



Chuck

 

[joem1945]

Eventually A500 or any steel will crystallize from repeated high power hits. The club had a 1" gong for years. But it split open and the inside was completly crystallized. The club has to replace the steel every 2 or 3 years due to failure.

 

[readyeddy]

I buy my 10" AR500 plates, 3/8" thickness, from eBay and not all vendors sell the same quality product. We shoot our plates at 100 yards with 223, 30 30, 270 and 30 06.

The worst plate took divots about three times deeper than the OP's pics, and the back of the plate bulged about the same height as the divots.

The best plates I found come from thetargetman. His plates are hard and will not divot. Even 270 firing 130 gr barnes loaded at 2900 fps will only leave copper coloring with no divots on his plates.

 

[Zerodefect]

Just a real noob question: why does cratering ruin the target?

Ever wash a spoon and get splashed?

 

[show_me_2nd]

It can turn bullets and bullet fragments back at you!!

Ahh, thanks!

 

[show_me_2nd]

Ever wash a spoon and get splashed?

Every time I wash one...

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

Ever wash a spoon and get splashed?

This is a great mental image. I've read literally dozens of explanations on how cratered steel is bad, but this one presents the best mental image of them all.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

I buy my 10" AR500 plates, 3/8" thickness, from eBay and not all vendors sell the same quality product. We shoot our plates at 100 yards with 223, 30 30, 270 and 30 06.

The worst plate took divots about three times deeper than the OP's pics, and the back of the plate bulged about the same height as the divots.

The best plates I found come from thetargetman. His plates are hard and will not divot. Even 270 firing 130 gr barnes loaded at 2900 fps will only leave copper coloring with no divots on his plates.

See, that's part of what I'm puzzled about. I shot two loads of .30-06, and the ballistic tip left just copper/lead splatter, while the SP load left significant dimples. I understand that bullet construction makes all the difference (the two loads had identical powder charges and measured velocity), but I didn't think the SP would put that much of a whoopin' on the target, especially with how many on the interwebs demand the exclusive use of SPs on their targets. Perhaps the ballistic tip insert started the early expansion of the bullet, allowing it to fragment more easily than the SP? That makes some sense, I suppose.

I am looking at getting a couple 8" gongs to supplement my 2/3 IPSC pictured above. Perhaps I'll try the targetman guy you suggest and see if the steel fares any better.

Overall, though I'm really pleased with the steel. This 2/3 IPSC target is mostly going to be for closer pistol practice (I'll flip the dimpled side to the back) and for longer range rifle (200-500 yds), but since it was my first AR500 target I wanted to see if it was up to the hype.

Thanks all

 

[taliv]

my recommendation is bigdogsteel. they're used in my Precision Multigun sniper matches as well as the PTS, K&M and CORE ranges. they're not the cheapest out there but they hold up well to hundreds of shooters with either zippy 6mm rifles or magnum 30s banging away each match.

 

[readyeddy]

Yeah, we don't shoot our gongs like taliv and his friends. Maybe I'll check out bigdogsteel for my next gong.

 

[Geno]

This is my primary target...well, it used to be.

Link: http://metaltargets.com/spinning-targets/centerfire-rifle/15-square-gong-tall-boy-target-rifle.html

Finally, after I don't know how many thousands of rounds, we decided to genuinely test what this AR500 steel could resist. It held up against the following with zero damage:

1) 5.56 FMJs
2) ***.22-250 Rem, 35 grain Hornady at 4,460 FPS (at 100 yard impact, who knows the velocity)
3) .270 Win in Hornady SuperFormance 130 SSTs
4) .7.62 NATO & .308 Win Win of all types
5) .30-06 Sprg soft points, 150 and 180 grains
6) .300 Win Mag in Hornady SuperFormance, 165 grain GMX
7) 12 guage slugs, buckshot and birdshot
8) 9mm
9) 10mm
10) .40 S&W
11) .45 ACP
12) .38 Spcl
13) .357 Mag

***The .22-250 SuperFormance at 50 yards, did pelt the steel half-way through. I actually found the displaced steel after we hit those impact areas with "other" centerfire cartridges.

Then, we took to reloads. We got the intended results, 100% clean and complete penetration. We loaded up the Weatherby Mark V, .300 Win Mag with 74 grains of IMR 4350, under a Lapua Scenar, 155 grain projectile. Those rounds, even at 100 yards, fully and cleanly blew through the 3/8" AR500 steel. The holes were about the size of a dime.

This company simply suggests that at the point of impact, the velocity be below 3,200 FPS. They also suggest no Hps, and FMJs. We surely got our money's worth out of that target. If it had not been for our intent of testing at what point the steel would fail, it still would be fine. Not to worry. I still have at least 8 more steel targets. And now, we know the steel's limits.

Geno