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Do we gun owners shoot ourselves...

Discussion in 'Activism' started by Apachedriver, Feb 25, 2008.

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  1. Apachedriver

    Apachedriver Member

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    in the foot? Bear with me for a minute of reading. Thanks.

    Like many of you, I've been reading threads here regarding the potential myriad of outcomes from the upcoming election. Some say we're done for, others say we will stand strong. One person said we need to lay low until it was time to strike and others say be as active as possible now politically and otherwise. Heck, there's even talk of secession or civil war and who knows what else I may have missed.

    A few say to win over new "converts" by inviting them to share in our interest; others are adamant they will never get it, so why bother.

    Someone made a very good point(I think so anyway) of how the diversity amongst ownership types could hurt us due to hunters not caring about CCWers and either of those perhaps not caring about sporting types, etc etc. As long as their type of firearm isn't affected, it's all good. You get the drift there.

    We talk about this politician vs. that one vs. the other one and how they all suck but that one is less evil or moderate or whatever.

    While all these differences of opinion by themselves are not necessarily a bad thing, it sure makes you wonder if we can stand together on the AWB issues.

    And then today I see the following quote:
    "I personally will not cast a vote for the presidency -- that is, if McCain is the Republican nominee. Under no circumstances will I vote for either of the Democrats. This will be the first time in fifty years that I have made this choice. I hope it will be the last." :what:

    Now, as a youngster, I was taught how important a person's vote is regardless of how the system works. As an adult, I know it matters because in my contributions to this country through military service, I've lived and almost died through the good and poor decisions of our leaders.
    Like many brothers-in-arms, I've lost many valuable friends, throughout the last 21+ years, while voluntarily carrying out the orders and decisions of those leaders. And now more than ever, with our rights being politically threatened as they are, I really hope that the rest of our country is feeling compelled to not stand idly by and just let things happen. Sometimes in spite of our fight (votes) for the things we believe in, we can be left with poor selections to choose from, but I believe we still have a responsibility to take an active part and choose from what we give ourselves as a country.

    BTW, this isn't an personal attack on anyone. I just got bothered(high road speak:cuss::banghead:) when I went on the GOA's website today to find out what they are about and read the FEB 08 letter posted by the GOA's Chairman of the Board. I was okay with it until I saw his quote in closing.

    http://gunowners.org/mcnoway.htm

    After all, I don't need to shoot myself in the foot, and I sure as hell don't want someone else shooting me in the foot either.

    Thanks, rant off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  2. wideym

    wideym Member

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    Not voting or voting for a third party is just as important to the American electorial process. It shows your party that they did not nominate a candidate you agreed with. Your party may lose this election, but hopefully they will remember the lesson during the next election.

    When citizens vote stictly along party lines with no regard to whom the person they are voting for you cease being a person and become just another drone.

    Vote your concenince not your party.
     
  3. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    Believing that your vote will influence the corrupt presidential electoral college system is pretty naive anyway.

    If you want to do some real good, get involved in the State and Federal representative's elections. And, get involved with the election of your next Sheriff. That's where you can make a difference.

    The presidential race is pretty much a waste of time to worry about. Pundits talk about it, candidates run, but unless you're a delegate you're just wasting your time.
     
  4. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

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    Amen, brother.
     
  5. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    How does any party know that you didn't vote for its candidate in an election?

    And how does any party know why you didn't vote for that candidate or vote in that election?

    Is there a way to put a little note on a ballot you didn't cast to explain why you didn't cast it?

    I'm curious about how my parents voted in the 1934 Presidential elections and why they voted as they did. Can you guide me to the database that would let me find out?

    I didn't know that the Electoral College was "corrupt." It is embodied in the Constitution, which always seemed honest to me and susceptible of amendment by a fairly reasonable process.

    Since "The presidential race is pretty much a waste of time to worry about" maybe it would be a good idea to tell the candidates and save them the time and money they spend doing it.

    Perhaps we could even push for a ban on Presidential elections or get as many people as possible to boycott them.

    I appreciate the level of political sophistication I find on the Internet, most especially in gun forums, because it helps me learn so much about the political process from expert people who have been successful in it. Were it not for such people I would be concerned about matters such as increased gun control, assault weapons bans, gun confiscations, and other threats to the ability of individuals to keep and bear arms. (I'm reluctant to mention the Second Amendment because I don't know whether or not it is corrupt too. Am I correct in assuming that it is corrupt, and also the Constitutional articles referring to the rights of a free press, free assembly, and free speech?)
     
  6. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    RH, are you implying or stating as fact that popular vote is what elects a President?
     
  7. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    What's your point, Wheelgunslinger? I referenced the Constitution in a manner that implies I read and understood it. Can't you take a little agreement?

    I well remember that brave men fought and died for our right not to vote, so I wouldn't for a moment want you to think that I was disagreeing with your political position. I'm well aware that people throughout the world aspire for the ability to not cast votes or participate in national elections, and I certainly wouldn't betray all of them by sounding like a dimwit.

    Let us stand firm in the principle "One man, no vote." The corruption in the Constitution of the United States of America is clearly revealed by amendments that increase the number of voters by guaranteeing the ability of people to vote regardless of their race or sex.

    To paraphrase Hillary Clinton's recent statement: If I have offended you through some misunderstanding or misinterpretation, or by your other incapacity, of any kind whatsoever, to follow my argument, I regret it.

    So we are agreed: let us all not get out the vote in the next Presidential election. Only by not voting for the best candidate while we wait for the perfect candidate and a perfect political system can we make a statement about who we are.

    As for the comment quoted by the original poster, which stimulated what many of us call thinking, I have no doubt that the person who made the statement is on the right track to accomplish his ambition:

    When enough people sit out elections they may well discover that elections become as irrelevant as you and others believe them to be, and what follows will take no effort on your part or any compromise of your conscience either.
     
  8. Mikee Loxxer

    Mikee Loxxer Member

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    There is a good reason why the presidency is not decided by the popular vote. If it was there is the potential that sparsely populated places like Wyoming would have no effect on the election and places like New York or California would completely drown them out. What would that do for gun rights? It sad to see how few realize why the electoral college system was put into place.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Barring some horrendous faux pas before the election, I will be voting for McCain, albeit with a profound lack of enthusiasm.

    That having been said, I cannot condemn someone else for refusing to. Had Giuliani come out on top, I would either be voting third party or not at all. I have such all consuming loathing for Giuliani that I would have rather put a gun in my mouth than vote for him, no matter WHO he ran against.

    I don't feel that way about McCain, but I have to respect the views of those who do.
     
  10. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Condemn is as unnecessarily harsh and extreme as declaring a Constitutional process corrupt. It so happens that I share your revulsion towards Giulani and I faced the same dilemma at the prospect of his nomination. I hadn't resolved the question of what I would do and I trusted--anxiously--that the process would reveal his weaknesses and destroy his chances. It did.

    What troubles me greatly is drumbeating to spread cynicism and withdrawal from the electoral process. I understand that it's often fashionable and terribly sophisticated to rail against our system and reject it, but I've never been favorably inclined towards self destruction. That I do condemn.

    Everyone on a gun forum is a political sophisticate at four year intervals and some even at two year intervals. Those who pretend to expertise in these forums pontificate about matters they barely notice except when it provokes them to complain that they are wrong, they are evil, and they are out to get us. There isn't any them, only us, and where I come from people who don't do the work don't get the ticket that justifies their complaints. Voting is the stage at which the effectiveness of the work is tabulated numerically. People who withdraw, do little except complain, refuse to vote, and urge others not to participate either do nothing useful for anyone. When they also lack knowledge, such as the ignorance noted by Mike Loxxer above about matters that used to be taught in high school civics courses, they do real damage.

    Of course everyone has the right to an opinion on absolutely everything, because that is the American way. But it does matter to me that the opinion be informed by knowledge, experience, and thought rather than cynical pigheadedness.
     
  11. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    Also -- What is to prevent a place like Chicago from placing 2.8 million votes? or 3 million votes? Or 6 million votes? (from a U.S. federal census population of 2.8 million) for one candidate?

    The electoral College limits the power any one State can have over our only national election.
     
  12. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Well the good news is that there are only about 20 people left in the membership rolls of GOA after their recent activities so no one is listening anyway......
     
  13. Rachen

    Rachen member

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    We already shot ourselves in 1964. Right in the right foot. If that didn't hurt enough, we forgot our mistakes, and shot ourselves in the left foot again in 1992. That means we already shot both of our feet, haven't we. If we keep on forgetting our mistakes, where do you think we are going to shoot ourselves next? Right, we're going to shoot ourselves right in the b*lls. And this time, it's going to hurt FAR MORE than it hurt us the last two times we shot ourselves.

    In Chinese, we have a saying. " BU DAO HUANG HE, XING BU XI. DAO HUANG HE LE, LIU YAN LEI JU LAN BU JIE LE" It means "When one doesn't fall into the Yellow River the first time he tries to fool around on it, he never learns from his mistakes. When he finally falls into the Yellow River, it will be too late to shed tears, and he is going to drown."

    We already played around on the banks of the Yellow River in 1964 and 1992. Both times we got a mouthful of water. If we don't start electing REAL politicians who care about our rights, we are playing around on the banks of the Yellow River again, and we are going to fall into it again. Oh, did I mention that the FULL MOON is out tonight? That means high tide is rising rapidly. I can already feel the water around my ankles.
     
  14. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    It's awful to work hard at shifting politicians towards more favorable views of Second Amendment issues only to be confronted by gun owners who urge people not to vote because they're just not good enough.

    There's nothing wrong with that suggestion but at least it would do some good if it were made in the Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton forums. Get those people to not vote because Barack and Hillary aren't perfect. Spread some of that enlightenment there where it might help gun owners retain their ability to own and use firearms instead of here where it can do nothing except work against us.

    Of course the Democrats would laugh at anyone making such a suggestion, but that's because the Democrats are fatally flawed: they want to win and they know how to do it. We're just 'way smarter than they are and we can argue our brilliance all day long, but we can't focus on the real goal long enough to accomplish it. We need rescuers. Of course we'll attack our rescuers: they're not perfect either, and none of them belong to Gun Owners of America and you know what that means! It means they c o m p r o m i s e and n e g o t i a t e. (Forgive the profanity please. I'm not a real gun owner. I only own guns and like shooting them.)

    I'd try offering the Democrats a whole bunch of sophisticated political theorists from here and I'd cut them a great deal too, but they'd throw me out amidst a bunch of hoots and catcalls and send me back here.

    The Democrats want all of the sophisticated political theorists here, urging people here not to vote for a less-than-ideal candidate or participating in a less-than-ideal national gun rights organization. Good enough or better than the alternatives isn't what gun owners want.

    They want all or nothing, but of course either way they'll complain that it isn't good enough.

    While I'm waiting, somebody get me a warm corned beef sandwich on rye bread and a cold bottle of root beer. I want the corned beef lean, but not too lean, and warm but not hot. Make sure the bread is firm, not limp, but fresh and not stale. Cut the sandwich in half on a diaganol, not straight across. Make sure to put the right amount of delicatessen mustard on it, not too little and not too much, but on the underside of the upper slice of bread. The root beer can be Hires but I prefer STB, and I won't drink any of the cheaper kind. Pour it into a soda fountain glass when you serve it to me so it has just the right amount of foam. Not too much foam, though, because it doesn't feel right on my upper lip.

    One of the other guys will pay for it. I won't pay because I don't like your attitude. Be quick about it.
     
  15. wideym

    wideym Member

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    I would have voted for McCain until he started SPONSORING bills like the campain finance and immigration ones. But voting for either McCain or Obama is like asking if you want a slow death or a quick death, either way you end up dead.
     
  16. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Good point, Wideym. That will teach John McCain not to vote for the campaign reform act in 2002.

    I know someone who hated the Knute Rockne Story and thought that Ronald Reagan overplayed his part, so he didn't vote for Reagan as President.

    So we can count on you to help elect Hillary Clinton. She'll appreciate it.
     
  17. wideym

    wideym Member

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    I'm not out to teach anybody a lesson. I'm letting my displeasure at his political record be known by not voting for him. That is why I did not vote for Bill Clinton for President, even though I was a Democrat at the time, I withheld my vote.
     
  18. Apachedriver

    Apachedriver Member

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    wideym (or anyone else),

    Not trying to pick on you but how exactly are you making it known to him? I see where you withheld your vote in the past but how does the candidate know why that was your choice? Did you write and let him/her know? Did you protest or sign a petition to send to the candidate? I'm just asking.

    It seems to me that simply not voting followed by not taking any other action results in your disappearance into the shadows surrounding the multitudes of faceless Americans that just sit and hope that someone else will do the work for them. (because they are entitled??:uhoh:)
    I mean sure, lots of them will stand for a minute or two and complain about the results but then it's "whew, I'm winded." Or it's back to that All-American Fatburger with the side order of cheesy curly thighs, a slice or two of fupa pie and a Diet Coke to balance it out.:scrutiny:

    I mean I understand the frustration with available candidates and their stands but it's our issues. I also understand how big a part the electoral college plays in all this.

    Maybe our popular vote for the Presidency is not all the politicians crack it up to be to the "simpleton" masses, but there have to be a ton of other ways to legally let them know our choices and displeasures.

    And oh BTW, when they send you responses that blow you off or belittle you because you don't support their view, well don't just sit there and say screw it. Tell others about it and write them again because if you let them gave you the side door exit, guess what crowd of faceless and voiceless Americans you will end up sitting alongside in the alleyway.
     
  19. RedLion

    RedLion Member

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    Withholding your vote does not help at all.

    In fact it makes the situation worse. The only reason the Clinton's ( yes both of them) are running is because they can't get enough power and honestly believe America is in love with them.
     
  20. CPerdue

    CPerdue Member

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    People who try to, 'send a message,' by not voting (or by voting for the other party to 'punish' someone) forget that messages have to be received and understood before they mean anything. The only message an election winner hears is, "I'm right by God!!"

    To have an influence you need to start working for people you believe in months or years before the election. You might even have to give them time and money.
     
  21. Troutman

    Troutman member

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    <<They want all or nothing, but of course either way they'll complain that it isn't good enough.

    While I'm waiting, somebody get me a warm corned beef sandwich on rye bread and a cold bottle of root beer. I want the corned beef lean, but not too lean, and warm but not hot. Make sure the bread is firm, not limp, but fresh and not stale. Cut the sandwich in half on a diaganol, not straight across. Make sure to put the right amount of delicatessen mustard on it, not too little and not too much, but on the underside of the upper slice of bread. The root beer can be Hires but I prefer STB, and I won't drink any of the cheaper kind. Pour it into a soda fountain glass when you serve it to me so it has just the right amount of foam. Not too much foam, though, because it doesn't feel right on my upper lip.

    One of the other guys will pay for it. I won't pay because I don't like your attitude. Be quick about it.>>

    I like that one. Your a trip!
     
  22. nstoolman1

    nstoolman1 Member

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    When you don't cast your vote you become a part of the vast numbers that the media brushes off as complacent people. I don't give them the satisfaction. I vote for who I think is the best candidate from the begining and if he doesn't make it I keep voting for the next best. We are the silient majority. If we all went and voted for good common sense candidate we would have the kind of government we need. O well sorry about the rant. I'm hungry and tired after a 12.5 hour shift. Sorry if I offended any one.
     
  23. siglite

    siglite Member

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    It's disappointing seeing the GOA advocating abstinence from the election. No, McCain is not our friend. But the problem is, he's going to wind up with the nod. This means, that we (we being the GOA, the NRA, and 2nd amendment advocates in general) have already failed to get our BEST candidate the nod. We didn't pull it off, and now we're stuck with what's left. These are the results of failures which have already occurred. And, the GOA solution because you took a shot in the nose is to give up the fight and succumb to the inevitable beating? Curl up in a ball, suck your thumb, and cry because you can't win? Place yourself completely at the mercies of a process from which you voluntarily withdraw?

    Lunacy.

    Writing someone in is superior to not voting.

    Mr. Hairless and I have had vocal disagreements in the past, particularly on the GOA and the NRA's willingness to compromise. And there likely will be more of that to come. However, it's unfortunate, but on this particular issue, I'm forced to eat a little crow. Maybe a lot of crow.

    My crow entree aside, I find this statement by Mr. Richardson to be horribly infantile and irresponsible. I hope GOA members see this infantile temper tantrum for what it is, and do your duty as citizens of this country.
     
  24. Hammer-52

    Hammer-52 Member

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    Well other than when I voted for Ronald Reagan (I'm too young to have voted for Goldwater) I can NOT recall ever voting for a candidate that was my PERFECT choice. I look at voting as an important right to exercise. But paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson; I must be educated & informed. So I've looked at where McCain stands on all the issuses and where the other stand and on the important issues McCain gets it right.

    Personally I wish Fred Thompson would have made it; I consider him the reluctant candidate--NEVER trust anyone that REALLY wants the job because it is ALL about them.

    Just my two cents
     
  25. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I owe neither loyalty nor trust to the GOP. The party is not the nation, no matter how much the leadership wishes it. And from all I've seen that particular party has been in power way, way too long at the national level. With power comes corruption and isolation. They have all but forgotten why they got into office to begin with. They need to be reminded.

    I don't think President Obama will be as rough on gun owners as you might expect, but his administration won't be much fun. That, too serves a vital purpose. We all need to be reminded of why the liberal Democrats got booted out of power to begin with, and I think Obama will do that for us with bells on. Besides, on gun rights McCain is liable to be vastly worse than Obama. Obama will need to govern to the center to function, while McCain can swing left on certain issues as he is prone to do. The worst we'll get from Obama is a new AWB, and we survived that once. McCain is liable to make all private transfers illegal, which is orders of magnitude more dangerous than a stupid cosmetics law. On top of this, while Obama has a real desire to be loved by millions McCain has always been slightly insane and I don't see that improving with age. I don't trust the man.

    Duty? What duty? I have a RIGHT to vote, and a RIGHT not to vote. This isn't Australia. I am free to withhold participation from a system I find too corrupt to support. And if ever there was a time to walk away or vote for Cthulhu, this election is shaping up to be one.

    Your registration and whether you voted are recorded. If in the end X number of registered Repubs vote in a county, but only X-Y number voted for the GOP candidate, they know they lost Y number of their core.
     
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