Do you enjoy/keep Saiga rifle in original config.?

[WardenWolf]

My only concern is that these fairly new plastic factory Izhmash mags could become slightly bent/worn on the wrong corner(s), allowing problems locking in or feeding (?).
Somebody on another website cautioned about this possibility. He didn't verify that he had seen it.

Some people have added AR mag adapters to the .223 Saiga, but would you trust any gun smith to add such an adapter unless he had already installed several of these plastic components to the mag well, with perfect results?:

OilyPablo: that is Some rifle!
Maybe I've not been around enough really good triggers to notice the difference. Mostly just smooth SKS, but with very long pulls, the '55 M-1 (Service Grade), Yugo Mauser, a friend's old '90s Colt AR .
These two Saigas are pretty smooth, short and fairly light/crisp compared to those rifles.

Do NOT put an AR magazine adapter on these guns. They require milling and reducing material from the front trunion. Trunion cracks have occurred while firing after installing this mod.

As for Saigas, I have a Saiga .223. I converted it largely due to its being so front-heavy. One thing you'll notice about the Saiga .223 is that the barrel's outer diameter is exactly the same as that of the 7.62x39 version. This is because they reused ALL components from the 7.62x39 version for the .223 except for the bolt and magazine, and just underbored the .30 caliber barrel down to .223. A standard 7.62x39 AK magazine WILL lock into the .223 Saiga. The transfer bar trigger isn't too bad for sporting use. It's fine for what it is.

While I converted my Saiga .223, I did not convert my Saiga 12 shotgun. All I did was put the Saiga skeleton stock on it. This dramatically improved its handling and comfort. I highly recommend this, as I found the normal Saiga stocks have a tendency to slap your ear when you bring the gun up rapidly.

 

[BSA1]

My Saigia Sporter carbine is still in it's as imported condition. I consider it to be my "sleeper" assault gun in the event the Feds pass a ban on features such as the grip, buttstock, etc. Even with the recent events in Kansas I don't expect any type of weapons ban.

I have stripped AR Lowers to satisfy my desire for a "black rifle" build.

 

[DMK]

A standard 7.62x39 AK magazine WILL lock into the .223 Saiga

This is ironic, but true. I can lock 7.62x39 mags in mine and they fit great. However, I had to modify my 5.56 mags to fit properly (though it was just a slight notch at the front to clear the lower rails).

As for Saigas, I have a Saiga .223. I converted it largely due to its being so front-heavy. One thing you'll notice about the Saiga .223 is that the barrel's outer diameter is exactly the same as that of the 7.62x39 version. This is because they reused ALL components from the 7.62x39 version for the .223 except for the bolt and magazine, and just underbored the .30 caliber barrel down to .223.

The 5.45 AKs are the same way.

It's handy for conversion though, because all the 7.62x39 AK barrel parts fit (gas block, front sight block, muzzle devices).


I don't find the 5.56 Saiga all that front heavy. Try a 308 Saiga. That thing is front heavy.

 

[WardenWolf]

Not entirely true, DMK. Only the first-run 5.45's were that way. Most 5.45 Saigas had appropriately-sized barrels that were noticeably thinner than the others. Also, my Saiga .223 is a 20" version, so that extra weight is very noticeable. I don't have a Saiga .308 (though I've held one), but I do have a 16" VEPR .308. Now that's a substantial piece of hardware, but at least it's lighter than an M1A.

 

[DMK]

Only the first-run 5.45's were that way. Most 5.45 Saigas had appropriately-sized barrels that were noticeably thinner than the others.

That's interesting. Both my Saigas (5.56x45 and 7.62x39) have military surplus AK74 gas blocks and AKM front sight blocks that fit both barrels just fine. (I also had an AK74 front sight block that I test fit, but never used because I preferred using 14x1mm muzzle devices instead of 24mm) If AK74s had smaller diameter barrels, I would have never been able to fit those on.

 

[Ignition Override]

WardenWolf: Thanks for the caution. My mention of the .223 'adapters' was only because this option surprised me.

I have neither the skills nor desire to do any Sort of conversion; and don't even own a Dremel etc, very seldom using any tool.
Once my brand-new Tapco Sight Tool arrives (better than the older, weaker version?) and it manages to help me hit the bullseye at 50 yards vs. 3" right, that will be enough.

aka108: "...wolves in sheeps clothing". I really like your Anglo-Saxon expression. Those words with the Cyrillic version of "Saiga" would look interesting on a t-shirt.

My only long-term concern would be the plastic magazines, despite the small metal tab on the trailing edge.
Have any of you guys experienced problems with continued use of the original Izhmash 10-rounders, other than a follower spring?

 

[WardenWolf]

That's interesting. Both my Saigas (5.56x45 and 7.62x39) have military surplus AK74 gas blocks and AKM front sight blocks that fit both barrels just fine. (I also had an AK74 front sight block that I test fit, but never used because I preferred using 14x1mm muzzle devices instead of 24mm) If AK74s had smaller diameter barrels, I would have never been able to fit those on.

Right. The 5.45 Saigas were different. They had a thin barrel. They were also produced much later than the others, effectively replacing the .223 version in production. Keep in mind that the barrel bulges where the sight and gas blocks go, which means they can use the same parts there. At some point, Izhmash bought out Molot (the factory that makes VEPRs) and started phasing out Saiga production in favor of the superior VEPRs. The 5.45 Saigas hung around until the 5.45 VEPRs became available, then they, too, disappeared. Saiga rifles are still made, but they weren't really imported anymore even before the ban.

Ignition Override, you can expect 2-2.5" groups at 100 yards out of a Saiga .223. For optics, you should get a UTG 978 lever-lock optics mount (make sure to get the lever version, not the set screw version). They're only $25 and rock-solid. They're every bit as good as the "proper" BP-02 mount, at half the weight and less than half the price. I have both, so I can tell you from experience.

A Simmons 3-9x40 is a good mating with these guns. As is a decent red dot.

For bullet weights, Saigas have a 1:9" twist rate, meaning the absolute maximum bullet weight you should use is 68 grains. I had no problems with this bullet weight, and even hunted with it. However, optimum accuracy is supposed to decline after 62 grains with a 1:9" barrel, so you should probably stick to 62-grain and lighter for best performance. These rifles CAN handle 5.56 thanks to the absurdly thick chamber walls, but they're intended for .223 and a steady diet of 5.56 will damage its accuracy with .223 due to throat erosion.

 

[bri]

the original configuration of the saiga has a vertical grip, AK trigger pack, and separate stock. what you see sold as the saiga with its dumb hunting rifle style stock is merely a workaround for importation, youre supposed to convert them and lets face it, you'll have access to a much larger aftermarket and better trigger group once you do

This. Modifying a Saiga isn't a conversion. You're simply restoring it to its original greatness!

 

[SSN Vet]

in the sporter config. the Saiga rifles are 1. front heavy and 2. have a crappy trigger.

Move the PG up where it belongs and you'll get much better balance.

Ditch the transfer bar and put in the Tapco G2 trigger and you will be amazed at the improvement. It actually gives you a pretty darn nice trigger @ ~ 5#

As far as I'm aware 922R is still in affect, so if you put an evil feature (i.e. hi cap mag) in you sporter Saiga, you might just run afoul of the law.

Read up on the conversion, get your parts count right and you'll greatly improve the rifle.

Bullet guides can be purchased or you can easily fabricate one out of 3/4" black iron pipe. I mod the mags and not the rifle's mag catch, so I can still use the factory 10 round mag, and I kept the stock fore grip (though I machined vent slots in it) and didn't bother with a muzzle brake or flash arester.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[.375]

This thread needs pics!

 

[WardenWolf]

Regarding the Tapco G2 trigger group, I don't like it. If you're trying to do accurate shooting and do a slow target pull, this trigger has a tendency to bumpfire and double (I speak from personal experience). I recommend the Arsenal trigger group instead.

Additional bonus information: the Saiga's front sling swivel nut is compatible with a standard 10/32" threaded swivel. I strongly recommend replacing it with a short-screw swivel stud such as this one: http://www.amazon.com/ATI-A-5-10-2390-Swivel-Stud-Kit/dp/B005Q0BC92

This will allow you to attach normal slings and bipods to your gun.

 

[Ignition Override]

Saiga info.

Thanks very much for all of the useful info.

If my plastic Izhmash mags ever begin to wear, in terms of locking in place or not feeding well, I will only Then have a gun smith add the bullet guide for the 7.62x39 or .223 rifle.
As I stated much earlier, there isn't yet any need for any mods, and don't need a larger mag. Might later add a first red dot sight (never owned anything similar, or any actual scope).

To repeat, the triggers on the .223 and 7.62x39 are a fair bit better than on other rifles I've owned or handled, i.e. M-1 Garands, two M59 SKS, a friend's all-original Colt AR etc.

 

[WardenWolf]

SGM Tactical makes good aftermarket Saiga mags. Actually the only ones worth buying. They're as good or better than the originals.

 

[OilyPablo]

SGM Tactical makes good aftermarket Saiga mags. Actually the only ones worth buying. They're as good or better than the originals.

SGM is all I use. Never a single problem. Hot, cold, dirty.

 

[WardenWolf]

I also may or may not have inspired Tapco's Saiga Intrafuse handguard. I was wanting a product that would allow me to attach a bipod and other accessories without having to convert the front end of the rifle (which is far more expensive than the back end). I sent an email to Tapco suggesting a product that would be a drop-in replacement for the normal handguard but provide a rail on the bottom, and explained why it would be a good marketing move as all the other solutions were way more expensive. They said they would pass it along to their design team. Less than a year later, this appeared:

http://www.tapco.com/products/saiga/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=155

I may not have gotten credit for it, but I like to think I inspired a product that would have helped me when doing my own build.

Email dated 11/25/2008:

I would like to suggest you produce a Saiga-ready version of your Fusion handguard. The reason I believe it would sell very well is because Saigas are intended as hunting rifles, but lack the means to easily install a bipod. Yet there are countless rail-attachable bipods out there, at a reasonable cost. Currently Saiga owners are limited to 2 options: either pay approximately $150 for an AK handguard retainer, AK gas tube, and your Fusion handguard or any of several other options, or drill and install rails on their existing handguard. None of these are a very attractive solution. Therefore, if you offered instead a Saiga-ready handguard that comes equipped with hidden rails such as your Fusion, it would immediately become the most affordable and attractive solution to anyone wishing to mount such an accessory. You would be filling a need, and would be doing so in a way that would make you the lowest bidder, so to speak.

 

[DMK]

For bullet weights, Saigas have a 1:9" twist rate, meaning the absolute maximum bullet weight you should use is 68 grains. I had no problems with this bullet weight, and even hunted with it. However, optimum accuracy is supposed to decline after 62 grains with a 1:9" barrel, so you should probably stick to 62-grain and lighter for best performance.

First of all I apologize to keep quoting you WardenWolf. I don't mean to debate, but you do raise interesting points for conversation.

I've been testing my 5.56 Saiga against my AR15s so I recently tried some different types of ammo in it from a bench rest with a 4x scope.

Mine shoots 5.56 M193 and PMC 55gr very nicely. Federal 69gr BTHP actually gave me much larger groups. 75gr Hornady got a little better than 69gr but not satisfactory, and I got my best groups with a 77gr Black Hills Mk262 load. Go figure.

Now, it was below 10 degrees, so I plan to repeat my testing on a warmer day and hopefully won't have such weird results.

This thread needs pics!

OK.


Saiga 5.56 with Mueller 1-4x Speed Shot on RS Regulate AK303/AKR mount

 

[WardenWolf]

No worries, DMK. That's a beautiful gun. I find it very unusual that your rifle was able to stabilize bullets that heavy, particularly considering that the military switched to a 1:7" twist rate specifically so they could stabilize heavier bullets. Note that my bullet weight curve was a general guideline, not specific to Saigas. The 68-grain bullets I was shooting were Black Hills BTHP.

Is your Saiga actually labeled 5.56, or is it .223? I've never heard of one being labeled for 5.56. I used to be very active on the Saiga-12.com forums back in the day, though I haven't posted there for many years.

 

[DMK]

Thanks WardenWolf. It's an '09 model and I can only just now call it finished. I've just tinkered on it here and there along the way. I'm still working on my '08 x39 Saiga.

You're right about the twist rates. I was very surprised too. One range session isn't enough to make it anything more than an oddity though. I want to repeat the experiment on a different day. My goal being to find a bullet weight that this gun really likes. It may have had something to do with the cold temperature, but my understanding is that cold weather makes long bullets shot from slower than recommended twists more unstable rather than more stable.


I call it a 5.56, but they are marked .223 even though it's safe to shoot 5.56 in them. It's my belief that they are only marked .223 to make them appear more 'Sporting'.

 

[WardenWolf]

I put a PSL-style stock that came off of a WASR on mine, refinished with Minwax Sedona Red, and similar handguards. Sadly I don't have pictures available right now. I always wanted to change the front sight block and install a brake, but didn't due to the difficulty and expense.

 

[DMK]

I always wanted to change the front sight block and install a brake, but didn't due to the difficulty and expense.

I enjoyed that part of the project. But it did require patiently searching for all the parts on the AK forums, using a drill press to drill out for the pins and buying the tools to thread the muzzle.

I figured, hey if they can build these things on a dirt floor in Pakistan, I can surely figure out how to do it with my garage well equipped from Northern Tool right?

.

 

[WardenWolf]

I lacked access to a drill press. All my Saiga conversion work was done using an ancient Black & Decker corded drill. I knew the front end was beyond the tools I had available.

 

[DMK]

Yea, I wouldn't attempt it without a drill press.

 

[Ignition Override]

OilyPablo/WardenWolf: You guys have helped to convince me to make the next magazine for each type of Saiga an SGM.
It's the only aftermarket for the Non-modified Saigas which so many people can trust.

DMK: the word cool just doesn't describe that rifle. Maybe no word is suitable enough (not just the wood's color).
Now I must find those exact looks in operation on Youtube.

 

[WardenWolf]

OilyPablo/WardenWolf: You guys have helped to convince me to make the next magazine for each type of Saiga an SGM.
It's the only aftermarket for the Non-modified Saigas which so many people can trust.

DMK: the word cool just doesn't describe that rifle. Maybe no word is suitable enough (not just the wood's color).
Now I must find those exact looks in operation on Youtube.

If you have a 7.62x39 Saiga, just go ahead and install the bullet guide. My friend did it on his VEPR in a matter of minutes with hand tools, and the Saiga is just the same. It's just not worth it for a .223 version because 5.56 AK mags are just as expensive as the SGM ones, and a lot harder to find.

Here's my Saiga .223 post-conversion:



And here, next to its "big brother":



I used the same stain on both the stock and handguards, but the stock took the stain a lot better.

 

[OilyPablo]

When my mags wear out I will install the bullet guide. I have too many gun and reloading projects right now to work on an otherwise fully functional firearm.